Getting back to the OP those numbers from 644 look like an allocation didn’t turn up on the Saturday and one of the cadets on Sunday didn’t have the correct medical/paperwork. There would be scope for an increase in output but we’re all too busy in the pub apparently instead of doing hundreds of cadet activity days a year.
But if they had have all turned up, would 12 cadets flown over the weekend, with 4 gliders been ok?
I think generally, it has finally been accepted that the throughput at the VGS’s has been woefully inadequate for a number of years, hence the decision to strip them of the groundschool and PTT.
So, I suppose the question I’m trying to get to the bottom of is, how and when are the VGS going to deliver extra gliding slots?
There are obviously people on here from VGS’s, so perhaps they could comment on their plans or directives from above to deliver more.
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Where’s the expectation that they will coming from?
Judging by AEF slots proposed, once they do get back to flying, it suggests they can fly 20 cadets per day. Not sure on how many airframes.
I don’t know much about gliding, so the turnaround could be a lot faster for powered aircraft.
There’s an expectation from me for starters!
Last year our WAvnO told us we could expect 2 cadets to glide every 2 years, at which rate it would take 47 years for them all to fly!
I’ve been campaigning for the removal of GS and PTT for ages, and now it has gone and the VGS’s have an extra half day to glide, I expect at least a doubling of cadets who glide.
Its usually 6.
With an average of 20 mins per sortie, that is only a little over 6 hours flying. So that is only an hours flying per aircraft per day.
So even that could be better.
I guess it comes down to how many pilots are available.
I always end up back to the same conclusion. AEF and VGS doesn’t represent good value for money compared to local flying clubs.
It needs a good shake down and reset… A root and branch review.
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Absolutely…and when we are being challenged elsewhere on value for money I want to see some VFM figures on the flying operations. I’d bet hands down they are the least value for money of all the activities we do.
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While that would be nice, I don’t think that’s remotely realistic.
This!
This.
And especially This. But led by people who actually have knowledge. Not idiots.
Again that is an assumption of all four aircraft flying GIF they aren’t it’s not the only task.
Turning all 4 aircraft to fly ATP as it was then (which is unsustainable long term) on a summers day 47 cadets were flown in one day. 6/day is winter tasking short day/bad weather doubling into longer days is normal.
50%ish of gliding flights are GS 15-20% instructor training giving about 30-35% GIF
versus the civilian world…probably not.
which begs the question - what output would we (those at the coal face) be happy with from a VGS?
I am not talking about how many places each Sqn gets, I am asking how many Cadets should a VGS be aiming to accommodate each flying day?
When I was on my GS back in the day, there were almost as many pilots/ground crew as there were GS and GIC Cadets - but at least they got through the numbers and delivered.
Nowadays we see not to disimiliar setup - 8 Cadets in 4 aircraft is already half the number of Cadets in pilots without taking into account other Ground School Staff: winch driver, Tower radio, launching staff, almost is a 1:1 match without any doubling of Staff roles.
is that efficient?
which leads neatly on to this:
what is it that VGS are doing (wrong) that BGA clubs aren’t which makes the numbers so inefficient?
and whatever the VGS are doing, can be it justified, or if removed does it make the experience any less rewarding, increase the risk (measurably) or simply devalue the experience to such a degree it loses its appeal?
It would be nice and it’s completely realistic. My deep seated fear is that nothing will change!
When the local club flies Air Scouts, Scouts etc. they plan on a 10 minute flight with a 5 minute turnaround. 4 flights per aircraft, per hour.
Lets assume a VGS opened at 8am, were set up and brief for cadets to arrive at 9. Flew from 9 until 12, stopped for an hours lunch and resumed at 1pm. Flew for another 3 hours, stopped at 4, packed away for 5.
With 4 gliders available, that would be 96 flights in a day!!
People on here will say “completely unrealistic”, but its not for a civvy BGA club. That is the difference.
We’re saying unrealistic for VGS’. Based on experience…
Not unrealistic 80 to 100 launch days are not uncommon GIF isn’t the only task
so even adding a MOD fudge factor of 50% efficiency call it 50 Cadets a day should be achievable yet the organisation sees 8 Cadets as a “success”…goes to show how far away the leaders are at the top if what is achievable and what is achieved are so far apart yet still seen as triumph
As said before but totally ignored in your calculations, is that GIF isn’t the only task and they don’t necessarily have only 1 flight.
30%ish is GIF flying so 25-30 flights 12-15 cadets.
BGA clubs and advocates regularly put out that they could fly huge numbers in a day but fail to caveat that with it not being EVERY flying day as that is unsustainable.
So on a 100 launch day, you are using 70 launches for instructors and gliding scholarships, and only 30 launches for the poor old cadets who have been waiting up to 7 years for there first glider flight?
I suppose my frustration comes about from seeing how Syerston operates (4 times), compared to a BGA club (regularly).
The last time I took cadets to Syerston, (last summer), we sat around doing groundschool and PTT all morning, while looking out the window at the leisurely airfield set-up.
We had lunch and only then went out to the launch point. The first 3 launches of the day had to be for instructor currency apparently, so we settled in to watch.
On launch 3 the winch broke down. My offer to take a look at it was declined (“we have a contract for winch maintenance, they can look at it on Monday”) and we were sent home!
We had waited 3 years for that gliding day!
Oh how I wish I could just take the whole squadron to my local club and fly them all in a day…
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As a rough set of numbers its in the ball park, Yep the VGS main effort is GS flying when everything is running “normally”.
But the GS are cadets that have been waiting as well
Everything isn’t normal though and that opens another can of worms, the stop starts of last two years and the great pause all of which aren’t VGS issues have left holes all over the grade instructor ranges that allow operation so they need plugging too.
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