Hi everyone i wanted to ask what type of rifle is used to achieve marksmanship badges. Is it the no 8.22 rifle which i hate the most or is it L98-A1 rifle i prefer ?
P.s. how many weekends/2 day trainings do i need to attend before entering formal test for marksmanship badge ?
Thank you for your time
You can obtain your marksman awards for any of the rifles used in the Cadets, this could be the No8, the L98A2, L81 or even a Sqn owned .22 rifle.
There are certain rules as to when you can fire these, and you must have a Weapons Handling test for each rifle. However there are not a set number of shoots you need to attend before you can try and obtain a Sqn Marksman. You just need to be able to shoot consistantly.
For sqn Marksman usually you would shoot at 25m and be able to shoot a 1 & 1/2 inch group or less, with 5 bullets, 4 times, one after the other. There are points for the size of the group. The tighter the group the more points.
I hope that helps. However ask your Sqn Shooting Officer (or whoever runs shooting at the Sqn) or ask your training officer for information.
I hope you have fun shooting and I wish you good luck in obtaining your first marksmanship award.
Please don’t hate the No8 rifle - if you can get a squadron marksman award (or higher category) using it, you will progress very easily to Wing or Regional with the L98A2. Depending on the type of rifle, higher grades of marksman award can include “snap” & “rapid” firing practices. However, if you cannot group consistently (the whole point of the Sqn marksman grade), you will not be able to progress to the higher awards - if you can group, then the sights can be adjusted to you so that you consistently hit the scoring area; for the air rifle, these higher awards are on point scoring = impossible to achieve if you can’t group to get the most accurate sight adjustment.
For most cadets, supporting a rifle is very hard after a while, as they are not used to holding heavy items - the heaviest thing they normally pick up is their mobile 'phone!! If you can improve muscle tone in the arms, it will help a lot.
For me as an RCO, with cadets that haven’t fired before, I will expect them to shoot a minimum of 4 details of grouping before looking at sight adjustment. Sometimes, on the 3rd or 4th detail, they might be very close to achieving Sqn marksman award - but normally after 4 details (air rifle - 25 shots per detail - 5 shots at each aiming mark), arms are getting tired & their grouping gets worse. Then I would hope that on the next shooting evening, things will work out - they will have remembered the coaching, they know how the rifle feels, & their arms aren’t tired.
If your squadron has access to an air rifle range, the cadet air rifle is easier to shoot than the No8 - but as the range distances are either 5m or 10m, the grouping sizes required for marksman award are smaller!
You should be coached to help you improve your performance. Remember the principles of marksmanship all the time:
• The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon
• The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort
• Sight alignment and sight picture must be correct
• The shot must be released and followed through without disturbance to the position
How you “build” your shooting position is very important - this is a guide for the L98A2, but elements will be useful for the No8, etc:
Leg position
Butt position
Left hand grip
Left elbow position
Right hand grip
Right elbow position
Head position (eye relief = 25mm)
Relaxation in position
Breathing
Your sighting must be consistent:
Sights (4 point alignment)
• E = Eye
• A = Aperture (rear sight)
• S = Sight (foresight)
• T = Target (Point of Aim – POA)
Finally, for the firing process, breathing & follow through of the shot is very, very important - you could be doing well at all the items listed above & release a bad shot if you ignores these!
Firing Process
• Breathing cycle
• Trigger control (6 secs to fire shot)
• Follow through
• Declare shot
Just to show you the scoring for Wg Marksman for the L98A2 at 25m:
5 rds grouping, 5 rds rapid, 5 rds snap, 5 rds deliberate, 20 rds total = score of 54 required, maximum possible 70 - a good group is essential - if you get bigger than a 2.0" group, even if all the shots make the scoring gauge = no marksman award!
2.0" group + 14 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 15 + 42 = 57
2.0" group + 13 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 15 = 39 = 54
1.5" group + 12 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 20 + 36 = 56
1.0" group + 10 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 25 + 30 = 55
Fantastic! Absolutely cracking post.
Edit: quick (possibly stupid…) question, are these shoots from the Prone, supported or unsupported? ie sandbag under the left arm?
I remember shooting, not all the time, but with the No8 with the sling wrapped round my left forearm?
sandbags can be used for squadron and wing practices but not region (I assume not corps either).
No. 8 slings are very rare nowadays
Thank you for absolutely great answers !!
[quote=“MikeJenvey” post=19523]Please don’t hate the No8 rifle - if you can get a squadron marksman award (or higher category) using it, you will progress very easily to Wing or Regional with the L98A2. Depending on the type of rifle, higher grades of marksman award can include “snap” & “rapid” firing practices. However, if you cannot group consistently (the whole point of the Sqn marksman grade), you will not be able to progress to the higher awards - if you can group, then the sights can be adjusted to you so that you consistently hit the scoring area; for the air rifle, these higher awards are on point scoring = impossible to achieve if you can’t group to get the most accurate sight adjustment.
For most cadets, supporting a rifle is very hard after a while, as they are not used to holding heavy items - the heaviest thing they normally pick up is their mobile 'phone!! If you can improve muscle tone in the arms, it will help a lot.
For me as an RCO, with cadets that haven’t fired before, I will expect them to shoot a minimum of 4 details of grouping before looking at sight adjustment. Sometimes, on the 3rd or 4th detail, they might be very close to achieving Sqn marksman award - but normally after 4 details (air rifle - 25 shots per detail - 5 shots at each aiming mark), arms are getting tired & their grouping gets worse. Then I would hope that on the next shooting evening, things will work out - they will have remembered the coaching, they know how the rifle feels, & their arms aren’t tired.
If your squadron has access to an air rifle range, the cadet air rifle is easier to shoot than the No8 - but as the range distances are either 5m or 10m, the grouping sizes required for marksman award are smaller!
You should be coached to help you improve your performance. Remember the principles of marksmanship all the time:
• The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon
• The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort
• Sight alignment and sight picture must be correct
• The shot must be released and followed through without disturbance to the position
How you “build” your shooting position is very important - this is a guide for the L98A2, but elements will be useful for the No8, etc:
Leg position
Butt position
Left hand grip
Left elbow position
Right hand grip
Right elbow position
Head position (eye relief = 25mm)
Relaxation in position
Breathing
Your sighting must be consistent:
Sights (4 point alignment)
• E = Eye
• A = Aperture (rear sight)
• S = Sight (foresight)
• T = Target (Point of Aim – POA)
Finally, for the firing process, breathing & follow through of the shot is very, very important - you could be doing well at all the items listed above & release a bad shot if you ignores these!
Firing Process
• Breathing cycle
• Trigger control (6 secs to fire shot)
• Follow through
• Declare shot
Just to show you the scoring for Wg Marksman for the L98A2 at 25m:
5 rds grouping, 5 rds rapid, 5 rds snap, 5 rds deliberate, 20 rds total = score of 54 required, maximum possible 70 - a good group is essential - if you get bigger than a 2.0" group, even if all the shots make the scoring gauge = no marksman award!
2.0" group + 14 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 15 + 42 = 57
2.0" group + 13 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 15 = 39 = 54
1.5" group + 12 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 20 + 36 = 56
1.0" group + 10 shots per 3 practices within gauge = 25 + 30 = 55[/quote]
Hi thanks for helping me. Would it be possible for u to tell me more about safety catch on rifle no 8.22 as i am hearing impaired and my sergeant didnt explain clearly to me. I want to know which way does safety catch on/off go is it all the way forward or backward ? When/how do i need to peform safety catch on /off?
Whats the purpose of safety catch?
I am so sorry for bothering u but u are an expert. 
On, safe is backward. Off, ready to fire is forwards. Never open the bolt when the safety catch is ON, and never put it on when the bolt is open. Only two times it is required. On the LOAD drill - check clear, round in, close bolt, apply safety catch. Only other time it goes on is if Stop is ordered on the range and you have a round loaded and the bolt is closed.
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You need to speak to your staff and ensure that they are taking your hearing difficulty into account. At the moment you will definitely require further training before taking a weapon handling test.
Explain the difficulty and make sure they know what they need to do to make the training accessible to you. It would be unfair to put you through a WHT when you currently aren’t even sure what the safety catch is for. The chances are that your instructor doesn’t even realise that you’re unsure.
There is no substitute for proper initial weapon training. I mean no offence to yourself, but learning the working and importance of something as crucial as the safety catch simply should not be done through online discussion. You need to be totally familiar with it and this can only be done through training and practice with someone qualified.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=19534]You need to speak to your staff and ensure that they are taking your hearing difficulty into account. At the moment you will definitely require further training before taking a weapon handling test.
Explain the difficulty and make sure they know what they need to do to make the training accessible to you. It would be unfair to put you through a WHT when you currently aren’t even sure what the safety catch is for. The chances are that your instructor doesn’t even realise that you’re unsure.
There is no substitute for proper initial weapon training. I mean no offence to yourself, but learning the working and importance of something as crucial as the safety catch simply should not be done through online discussion. You need to be totally familiar with it and this can only be done through training and practice with someone qualified.[/quote]
Yes they know about it and yes they already know that i need further training for rifle to make sure i know everything due to being deaf. I know what i am supposed to do but it just that only a part that i need to double check online as i misunderstood what my instructor said about safety catch and i tried asking again but sergeant were too busy answering so many cadets questions. I tried asking other cadets about it and they are unsure giving me guess answer that i dont like it. Thanks to air cadet central that is much more accessable for hearing impaired to ask questions and nothing can stop me from asking question online. I totally agree what you say as it is a concern for safety reasons but nothing can harm me to double check online and i will also double check with sergeant privately before doing anything formal weapon training. Thanks for your concern though.
At work, so not the time to delve into the ACTOs, etc - what is the reference please for shooting marksman awards “supported?”
Off the top of my head, I seem to remember that slings or unsupported are the only options?
(My in-depth post above was based on prone, unsupported. I give out an A5 handout with the details to all new firers as an aide-memoire, & ensure that they are briefed accordingly.)
IIRC, you used to be able to shoot Sqn marksmans supported - but anything above had to be unsupported. However, this reference has now disappeared… and has me questioning when it went… and if it was ever there!!!
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=19534]You need to speak to your staff and ensure that they are taking your hearing difficulty into account. At the moment you will definitely require further training before taking a weapon handling test.
Explain the difficulty and make sure they know what they need to do to make the training accessible to you. It would be unfair to put you through a WHT when you currently aren’t even sure what the safety catch is for. The chances are that your instructor doesn’t even realise that you’re unsure.
There is no substitute for proper initial weapon training. I mean no offence to yourself, but learning the working and importance of something as crucial as the safety catch simply should not be done through online discussion. You need to be totally familiar with it and this can only be done through training and practice with someone qualified.[/quote]I agree 100%.
JM’s description is entirely spot-on, but: as a WI, I’m worried that if you’re unsure about the operation of the safety catch, I’d be worried about what else you might have missed!
Minor point - it’s very unlikely that you’ll ever shoot an L98A1, as the A2 version replaced it some time ago! I’m fairly sure that there are no A1 rifles left, thank dog.