Tutor Replacement?

The RAF’s New Training Fleet.

If the Texans are going to Valley what’ll happen to Linton?

The article implies the G120TPs will only be going to Barkston Heath and Cranwell, what about the AEFs and UASs?

Most likely close, or remain as a satellite site of Leeming. It’s been on the cards for a number of years.

As you can imagine the rumour mill is churning out some corkers at the moment; there’s talk of a major reshuffle in the flying training locations (outside of the ‘all FJ training to Valley’ news) - but I must say that was a case of “he said that she said that her dog said that his mate said…”

The RAF could save lots of money by not having UAS and ATC flying and looking after aircraft.
What is the training benefit to the RAF of the Tutor that the G120 cant do. Would the RAF get/pay for an aircraft exclusively for the ATC/UAS
Looks like the ATC and UAS flying will be Vigilant T1 and Viking T1.

And before you ask I have no evidence for this but in this but in these times of low funding it would make sense to the RAF.
It dose leave the ATC and UAS without any powered flying :?

indeed but also save a lot more by disbanding them altogether!

The gliding is unique to the ATC…I dont understand your point…

The RAF/MOD fund the support for the No8 and L81 Rifles and the associated costs which are exclusive to Cadet use…

The RAF/MOD fund the support for annual camps (ok few and far between now) which is an exclusive Cadet experience…

Back in the day were Chippies used for AEF/UAS funded etc by the RAF, solely for the UAS/AEF?
The last serving Chippie was IRRC at Gatow and flown to maintain a British aerial presence in W Berlin.

We did a lot of things back then that wouldn’t be done now. The reduction in UAS flying activity was initially mooted in the mid 1970s but the paper that put forward the idea was not well received and it ultimately proved career limiting for its author. He at least had some satisfaction from seeing most of his recommendations put in to practice in recent years. It could be said that it is a curse to live before your time.

Strangely the Gatow Chipmunk actually had an operational role. It was fitted with a fixed camera and carried out routine reconnaissance sorties around Berlin. An acquaintance of mine had a very pleasant tour there as OC the Stn Flt… The Chipmunk was a bit like the RAFG Comms Sqn Pembrokes that trundled up and down the corridors clicking away.

Whether or not a dedicated AEF aircraft is sustainable in the current climate I really don’t know. I regret to say however, that I think the odds are stacked against it…

exmpa
exmpa

Slightly off topic, but there is still an ‘operational’ chipmunk on the BBMF

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[quote=“juliet mike” post=21734]Slightly off topic, but there is still an ‘operational’ chipmunk on the BBMF

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Tail dragging training. Or how to see where you are going without any forward vision.

[quote=“MRAR” post=21696]The RAF’s New Training Fleet.

If the Texans are going to Valley what’ll happen to Linton? [/quote]

Probably close, although it could have another use- being just outside York it’s probably perfect for the Army - with the UAS/AEF and VGS keeping the airfield open.

Yes, as we are getting around 20 for RAF EFT at Cranwell and RN/Army EFT at Barkston. It’s a step up in performance from the Tutor, might have bang seats, so almost certainly would be unfit for AEF flying (although on the plus side, brakes of to commencing aeros would be about 3 minutes)!

In the short to medium term, the Tutor will remain with Wittering being the “hub” for Tutor operations - 115® Sqn, ULAS, CUAS, the associated AEF(s) and maybe EMUAS being there too by the time MFTS kicks in. The remaining Tutors will probably stay at current sites bar one or two (Leuchars, Colerne and Linton being up for debate perhaps).

That aircraft is indeed the Berlin ‘Spitmunk’. Although it’s there as a tail-dragging trainer, it is a historic aircraft in its own right.

[quote=“chaz” post=21741]

Yes, as we are getting around 20 for RAF EFT at Cranwell and RN/Army EFT at Barkston. It’s a step up in performance from the Tutor, might have bang seats, so almost certainly would be unfit for AEF flying (although on the plus side, brakes of to commencing aeros would be about 3 minutes)!

In the short to medium term, the Tutor will remain with Wittering being the “hub” for Tutor operations - 115® Sqn, ULAS, CUAS, the associated AEF(s) and maybe EMUAS being there too by the time MFTS kicks in. The remaining Tutors will probably stay at current sites bar one or two (Leuchars, Colerne and Linton being up for debate perhaps).[/quote]

Please expand on this, if possible. Does this mean that at some locations the 115 Tutor will be run in parallel with the Grob 120? For an extended period into the future? Ideally I’m misunderstanding this.

So the Grob 120…retractable undercarriage? Interesting. Or is there a fixed trike option available…hopefully we won’t have to see RAs being written for Very Pistol drill at AEF :wink:

And presumably the fully digit cockpit version will be the one which is procured? Although there’s possibly a training value in retaining real clocks, so as to create a merit gradient within the MFTS…I mean still with the newer EA add-ons and even TCAS etc

Name of the Grob 120 in RAF service? If it’s not been chosen, I reckon Tutor2 or Supertutor could be in the running.

wilf_san

[quote=“wilf_san” post=21746]
Please expand on this, if possible. Does this mean that at some locations the 115 Tutor will be run in parallel with the Grob 120? For an extended period into the future? Ideally I’m misunderstanding this.[/quote]

The Grob G120TP will only be based at Barkston and Cranwell from 2017/18. The only place the G120TP and Tutor may be co-located is if EMUAS and 7AEF remain at Cranwell in the long term. Once MFTS is up and running the only Tutor ops will be CFS (supporting the UASs), UASs and AEFs.

On paper it’s retractable. Whether they will trust the students to put it up and down is another mattter. I’ve heard rumours of it being bolted down. That’ll be a joke. The Argentines have already had one land wheels up mind you.

Real clocks can be fixed in the cockpit. :wink: The cockpit looks good, and it has an autopilot - if it wasn’t part of a PFI we’d probably pay millions to downgrade it and take the useful stuff out. The truth is that by the time MFTS is fully up to speed there will be very few legacy (non glass cockpit) aircraft.

No idea.

Indeed, once Tornado has gone will there be any fixed-wing aircraft in front-line service without glass cockpits?

Sentry/Airseeker maybe?

Not clever - reduces climb performance - & in a ditching situation = gear up for most aircraft with retractable gear.

Ah, the good old days where the various MT vehicles came with radios, but these were taken out on arrival, as there was no “spares or maintenance support.” That made long drives really fun…

Not clever - reduces climb performance[/quote]

It’ll still be quicker to climb up to teach Spinning 1 than in a Tutor…

[quote] - & in a ditching situation = gear up for most aircraft with retractable gear.
[/quote]

TGO(E) would just be written to say you’re not allowed to operate within 5nm, 10nm or whatever of water! :wink:

At the end of the day, with MFTS we may have not got the aircraft we need for our 3 tier (FJ) training system. The performance of the G120TP is perhaps rather too in-between that of the Tutor and Tucano/Texan II for an elementary training aircraft. Particularly if you factor in Army EFT too.

Hmmm, spinning (gear down) - only if certified…

There’s a simple way around that - you remove spinning from the syllabus and only teach it at BFJT. RW and ME streams don’t “need” it.

Not that anyone wants that to happen.

There’s a simple way around that - you remove spinning from the syllabus and only teach it at BFJT. RW and ME streams don’t “need” it.

Not that anyone wants that to happen.[/quote]

Nah, that’s treating the symptom, not the cause…

APO Bloggs failed to recover from the spin that he inadvertently caused; the syllabus has been changed as it was deemed safer to fly with the undercarriage down permanently, rather than train pilots how to use a gear up/down selector properly in conjunction with the correct pre-landing checklist.

You need to train recovery from incipient spin so that you don’t enter a spin in the first place - if you aren’t cleared to spin you shouldn’t be playing anywhere near that corner of the envelope. Ideally you train for recovery from simple spin and from spin in landing configuration.

[quote=“MikeJenvey” post=21764]
Nah, that’s treating the symptom, not the cause…

[i]APO Bloggs [/I][/quote]

Depends how much say you have in the cause! Just hearsay, but fairly reliable hearsay. Great little aeroplane, just maybe not the best to replace a role previously filled by Chipmunk, Bulldog and Tutor…

PS no APOs do EFT anymore!:wink: