Because for those of us who have endured 24 weeks undergoing Guards basic training, or an 8 week All Arms Drill Course at Pirbright, or a 6 week Advanced All Arms Drill Course at ITC Catterick, or indeed in my case, all the above, it’s in our blood.
No condescending remarks please. This is serious. After the ordeals that you put yourself through, and they are all voluntary after all, there is a sense of pride that is felt within yourself that forces you, drives you to be smart and indeed push the boundaries of smartness. We maybe ridiculed in this day and age, but drill and the drill instructor remains the backbone of the military machine; its discipline and its pride. Now I have no idea of your history or background but please, if you think it’s weird or a bit odd then fine, that’s your prerogative. But also, if you don’t really understand it or, perhaps worse, don’t want to understand the way we fell about our pride and smartness, and the fact that we want to project this to young people who deep down get immense pride from their turnout and drill, then please say nothing.
Merlin, they look great; and am pleased to see 13 in the sole. “wood 'n brass” buddy, wood 'n brass!
I missed this thread first time around. I love this ingenious method of getting round the ammo boot ban. Long may its abuse of a technicality continue unchecked.
All the dress regs have to say on the matter of studded footwear is to tell us that ‘when participating in drill activities’ is an example of a dangerous location on an RAF station where ‘a flammable liquid vapour can produce a flammable air mixture’.
So for christ’s sake…don’t ever let anyone smoke or use a mobile phone near you when you doing drill…you might explode!
All the dress regs have to say on the matter of studded footwear is to tell us that ‘when participating in drill activities’ is an example of a dangerous location on an RAF station where ‘a flammable liquid vapour can produce a flammable air mixture’.
So for christ’s sake…don’t ever let anyone smoke or use a mobile phone near you when you doing drill…you might explode![/quote]
Its one of those it dont say you can wear them in AP1358c so you cant type things.
As for dangerous locations its easier to just not wear them on a flying unit
All the dress regs have to say on the matter of studded footwear is to tell us that ‘when participating in drill activities’ is an example of a dangerous location on an RAF station where ‘a flammable liquid vapour can produce a flammable air mixture’.
So for christ’s sake…don’t ever let anyone smoke or use a mobile phone near you when you doing drill…you might explode![/quote]
The AP is very clear that you can only wear shoes with No1s or No2 Variants. ergo no boots.
And none dangerous locations too, such as the majority of Squadrons in my area, and probably further afield. If anyone came to my unit wearing such items, they’d be kindly asked to remove them so as to not damage the flooring, or the shoddily laid tarmac in the compound.
If individuals want to wear them, I don’t see what the fuss is about. Unless they’re made by a secret group of elves that magically make you better at drill, then I’ll get each of my cadets a pair!
Ah, I thought you meant that around your way there had been a specific, written ban pretending to be from HQAC or something.
The RAF dress regulations don’t include ammo boots either but they don’t seem to worry about issuing RAF DIs with them and expecting that they’ll wear them.
The unofficial opinion at ATF is ‘Why wouldn’t DIs wear drill boots for drilly things if they want to?’. Pretty much the same opinion held by most RAF DIs also I’d expect.
Same thing with white belts. In the RAF, DIs wear a white belt. In the ATC it had to be specifically written into dress regulations to prevent people getting a sad on over it.
The trouble with ammo boots is not so much that they’re not included in 1358C, it’s more about the ATC getting bent out of shape over things that the RAF really don’t consider to be a problem.
Par for the course really.
Ok we get that you were in the Guards and are rightly proud of your service… but don’t mention it in every post, it makes you sound a bit of a tit!
As for the boots/shoes/correctional footwear. “meh” is my opinion, each to their own. Though personally I don’t see the need.[/quote]
In all fairness Racing stick has only mentioned it a few times not in every post.
I seem to remember some members here saying the same to me when it was only mentioned a few times. Not sure why some people get all upset with ex regs when they mention they are ex when its relevent to what is being dicused and seein as its a Military youth organisation past military service is bound to come up a lot
I would imagine all ex-service people are proud of their time served and what they achieved, and so they should be, but we also need to remember that we are now part of a big youth group, sponsored by the RAF with a different rule book.
So why some still think they are in the Army, Air force, Navy, Marines, Regiment… is beyond me.
I agree Lead Balloon, but some of us are mature enough to know we no longer serve in HM Forces.
The problem is that some people seem very insecure about their position in the ACO when confronted by former regular service colleagues who clearly have more experience in the military way of life.
This isn’t meant to stoke an arguement. Far from it. However, as Zinggy pointed out due to the very nature of the subjects discussed former service is bound to come up.
There is a different rule book, yes, per se. But the similarities are more than striking and if we are not a military organisation, despite how much HQAC may attempt to advertise the fact, we wear military uniform, pay compliments accordingly, fire weapons, do drill (I was a Guardsman, you know), build bashas, follow military orders;etc. And that was something we did a lot of when I was in the Army. (Oops, there I go again!!)
“When I was in the CCF we didn’t let all these rules get the way.We made our own ones up to what we needed. I regularly paraded with Drill Boots and when in CS95 wore putties as per our standing order. The great traditions of our school have been long standing over many years going back to Cromwell’s time and our regulations stood us in good stead when we sent our OTC to help in 1914.”
Tongue out of cheek now.
Racing Snake - you have a lot of valuable experience and knowledge. You come across as very keen and passionate with helping the ACO and thats brilliant. You mention in your posts about your time in the guards very frequently and you are justifiable proud of that (as you should be). The trouble is, in my opinion, is that you over mention it (sometimes when not relevant) & I am more likely to switch off or skip over what you’ve put - Which is a shame at it means I am more likely to miss out on some of your valuable insights in way to do things (which is partly what ACC is about - sharing alternatives and different ideas).
The ACO has some funny quirks and contradictions which do not, on the surface, make sense (just wait until it comes to transporting L98s or Ammo!) and they’ll take a while to get use to. Your service with the guards will help, but tbh its only after serving with the ACO that you really get your head round things (even as an ex cadet going to staff).
The reason why I am posting this is that I can see things turning into a bit of a flame war if we are not careful (although I hope the Mods are stood to and watching like hawks) and that not only would that not do any good, it would probably make you automatically suspicious and distrusting of staff in the ACO outside of your wing - Keep posting your thoughts & experience, but make your reference to the guards when its relevant not as a default and assume that there is people on here with vastly more experience than yourself (I certainly do & I know that there is plenty of them!).
Anyway Back to Topic about Studded shoes
Can someone please explain why they would need studded footwear for drill? So far people have said that they are dangerous (due to slipping) and can’t be worn on most stations due to the spark hazard. As we aren’t meant to stamp in any more, any extra noise is diminished so what do we gain?
Also (for loophole spotters & pedants) - when does a shoe become a boot? Is it based on the number of holes (6 or less) or is it more than two inches above the ankle?
[color=#bb0000]The off-topic chat about past service will stop now. -Op Archway[/color]
Most of them make little or no sense once you dig deeper into them either. Fair to say that there’s a lot of pointless BS in the ACO.
It’s not a matter of ‘need’ so much as it’s just tradition. Studded footwear sounds good for drill. Ammo boots look good when bulled up. Drilly types tend to wear ammo boots for drilly things.
It’s really not advisable to attempt to apply ‘need’ to ceremonial.
Why does anyone ‘need’ a sash? Why does anyone ‘need’ a bearskin? Why does anyone ‘need’ a sword these days? &c…
It’s not true to say that they can’t be worn on most stations. There are specific areas on stations where they can’t be worn because of spark hazard and AP1358 explains and lists examples. The drill square isn’t one of them.
Slipping is another commonly quoted reason.
Yes you need more care on certain surfaces but I’ve never actually slipped over in mine. Nor have any of the 300+ Sea Cadets, Marine cadets, and associated staff who I see wearing them every year at the Trafalgar Day Parade in London.
The idea that cadets musn’t wear studs because they’re dangerous is very much an ATC thing and is proven by real world experience to be unfounded.
If the bloody sea cadets don’t have a problem then why do we think our people will?
Surely that’s got to be to do with coming over the ankle?
So let me get this right buy or get made a pair of shoes/boots that you will only really wear in ultra specific circumstances, lots of commonsense there. It might look good, to some and impress simpletons, but does it improve your drill, I doubt it. If you get your jollies this way crack on.
Back in the day as a cadet I had quarter tipped or blakeyed heels and it was a right pain having to faff around at camp changing into soft soled shoes for section visits, so I got some shoes for cadets and wore these for school. Also wrt cadets would you seriously expect them to have 2 sets of footwear for parades? The majority of younger cadets only have one pair of shoes, full stop.
I must admit if you came to my sqn wearing them you would be asked to remove them or pay for any damage to the floor, which is soft lino type of affair.
It does worry me a bit that this sort of thing (like some other similar ‘dress issues’) excites some (boring home life obviously), it’s almost as if it makes them feel they are a ‘better’ than those without.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=11050][quote=“merlin456” post=11041]Yawwwwwwwn… If only you lot spent this much time on your own Sqn’s. Then you might see some results.
Second thoughts, I doubt it.[/quote]
Something upset you today?[/quote]
Clearly! I’m not sure what we did to deserve a dig about our Sqn’s needing some “Results” :unsure:
