When I served on a jury a few years ago I chose to attest. After the other 11 had stood up together and sworn their oath I had to stand up alone, read a much longer blurb off a card and swear myself in. I have no confidence issues but that might be a bit more daunting for a cadet to do. I understand that RAF attestation is done solo on joining.
The way we have tended to do enrolments in the past is that they’d all step forward and be led through the promise, with each inserting their names when prompted. That isn’t going to work so well and rather than have one group with god and one group without it will probably be best if they all make the promise individually. It isn’t like we enrol a great number of cadets at once at my squadron
[quote=“incubus” post=8221] I understand that RAF attestation is done solo on joining.
[/quote]
i can correct you on that one.
having recently (May 22nd) visited Halton* to witness an attestation this was done in three groups, two were “with God” the final group (the “stinking Heathen’s” the Sgt jokingly referred to them) were “without God”
the group i witnessed (with God) saw somewhere between 16-20 recruits enter the room, in a front and centre rank format, with family members sat/stood on the third/rear rank to witness. each was asked a series of “yes/no” answering questions individually in turn** but it was very much a joint experience the group sizes limited only be the physicality of the room
*this maybe different in Cranwell for Officers?
**for example, do you have anything you wish to bring to our attention which you feel may jepodise your involvement in the Royal Air Force? all were asked to answer, in turn individually, then the next question and so on
When I attested there was me, an SAC as a witness and the Adjutant who did the swearing me in bit.
The witness said it was the first time he’d seen someone do it alone.
I had to be attested early because my medical was due to expire, while the other blokes who had passed their PJFT and final interview that day had a ‘cooling off period’ of a week or so.
I chose to have a bible (and I’ll explain why if anyone is interested), but when the rest attested a few days later most didn’t. They all did the attestation together, but those who didn’t want a bible spoke the version without God while those who had a bible spoke the version with God. It’s only a couple of words different.
That’s from an Auggie perspective, but the friends I have in other branches seem to have done roughly the same. (Apart from the Navy, obviously)
[quote=“abz” post=8208]It would appear that bib brother is watching…
Just got an email - Cadets on enrolment, are to be given the choice of a religious based ‘Cadet Promise’ or a secular one.[/quote]
[quote=“incubus” post=8209][quote=“abz” post=8208]It would appear that bib brother is watching…
Just got an email - Cadets on enrolment, are to be given the choice of a religious based ‘Cadet Promise’ or a secular one.[/quote]
P-Letter 04-13, but doesn’t seem to be on sharepoint yet.[/quote]
Its seems a bit slow filtering down to me, I haven’t had an email updating me and the P letter still isn’t on sharepoint. Would one of you please either quote exactly what has been said or send me a PM with the details?
[quote=“P Letter 13-05”]With immediate effect, cadets are to be offered a choice of promise when they enrol and may opt for either the Religious or Alternative Promise as follows:
Religious Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to God and the Queen
My country and my flag.
or
Alternative Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to the Queen
My country and my flag.
Cadets must be given a free choice of the Promise that they make.[/quote]
[quote=“P Letter 13-05”]With immediate effect, cadets are to be offered a choice of promise when they enrol and may opt for either the Religious or Alternative Promise as follows:
Religious Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to God and the Queen
My country and my flag.
or
Alternative Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to the Queen
My country and my flag.
Cadets must be given a free choice of the Promise that they make.[/quote][/quote]
So exactly what a lot of units have been doing for a long time now then :ohmy:
Well done ACO on the brilliant rewording of the Cadet Promise. That must have taken a lot of thought! Also that by making this change have Chaplains had their Article 9 rights iaw The European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms breached? This stipulates that “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom either alone or in community with others,and in public or in private to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.”
Although nothing has been said on the subject, is the way the Enrollment Service is prepared for in ACP 9 also going to change?
Where Article 9 may be breached is in relation to Matthew 28 verses 19 and 20: "Go ye therefore and teach…(v19) and verse 20 says "…Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
So (applicable to those taking the revised promise): Chaplains will not be able to say the word ‘God’ in their enrollment service. It follows that if they omit God from the enrollment then the Chaplain should not be able to teach about God in the lead up to the enrollment, The Chaplain is therefore denied the opportunity to apply one of the most important passages of Scripture therefore Article 9 Rights have been breached.
You honestly believe that your human rights are affected because you’re not allowed to preach to those who have specifically chosen a non-religious option? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?
If I remember correctly (from the history of the ATC DVDs that were issued recently), the initial promise consisted of just the first paragraph. I don’t know when the 2nd paragraph was bolted on (and it feels bolted on) and it may be best for the future if we unbolt it and just stick with the first, uncontentious paragraph.
I still hold with my statements earlier in this thread somewhere that we don’t need a promise at all and we don’t really need an enrolment ceremony either.
It is somewhat anachronistic in today’s world, where religion plays no real part in people’s lives (unless it’s hatch, match and dispatch) and people who do have a faith of any colour but especially Christian are ridiculed, a lot of people are not really Monarchists and making a promise to serve anyone or thing loyally (in a world where marriage is regarded as a throw away) means nothing.
I’d say lose it purely on the basis that staff don’t make a promise and none of it means anything to 99.99999% of cadets.
I’d liken it to the employment contract we are expected to sign, it may get signed but given we aren’t employed so suffer as a consequence if not being fully compliant, it is just a pointless document filled with empty words.
Until the changes are made wouldn’t the best way be to allow the cadets to simply not say the words that associate to religion if they are inclined not to? That’s what I did when I got enrolled.
