How about Charles Dawin’s The Origin of Species or Stephen Hawkin’s Brief History of Time?
That sounds scarily familiar!
It’s not helped this time around by those damn Gideon’s bibles that we’re dumped on us.[/quote]
Yip I have a box of them too. I don’t want them, don’t need and would have much preferred a donation of the money to the sum they cost to produce to my sqn funds.
If a cadet or staff member wants a bible, any holy book, or in fact any book they can do the same thing as everybody else and go to a library, a shop, or download it. If they want a particular holy book I would suggest a place of worship would probably give them one if they asked for it.
I have a new Chaplain just waiting for his CRB to come back. I couldn’t even palm off a Gideon’s bible onto him. I gave a ‘air cadets’ bible to him told him he could keep but he didn’t want it, apparently he already has one :lol:
My new Chaplain came to the Sqn to take Enrolment Promises in December.
He and I spent a while beforehand talking to the Jr Cdts about their Promise and what the words mean. It was a round table discussion where everyone was encouraged to join in and low and behold smallest, meekest, 13 year old cdt asked what he should do because he doesn’t believe in god. Something that I believe he only asked because he felt comfortable within the discussion and had a genuine concern. Of course I told him to miss out the words, which he did.
I want Enrollment to be meaningful to the cadets, they are pledging membership and belonging to the Squadron, and being an Air Cadet with all that that entails.
If a cadet feels that making the promise under God, or Allah, or Zeus is important to them then good for them but I think we need to be careful not to foisting a God or religion on to them.
As an individual I have very strong opinions on politics, religion, social issues etc but as a staff member within the ACO I try and keep them to myself. I expect I give things away at times, which is human nature, but I do try not to. I suppose it might help that I think an option is less valuable if it is just parroted rather than thought through.
Zeus…now that would be a goodun!
With no disrespect to you Padre, but how did your Muslim cadet (or his parents or most likely his Imam) feel about that as it is forbidden for a non-Muslim to handle the Qur’an?
With no disrespect to you Padre, but how did your Muslim cadet (or his parents or most likely his Imam) feel about that as it is forbidden for a non-Muslim to handle the Qur’an?[/quote]
Hmm, in the city close by me, there is periodically a group of muslims that hand out copies of the Koran in English to anyone that would like one. They do this to engage, and promote understanding, plus I believe that they do this in other towns in the region.
Are they full copies of the Qur’an or excerpts?
Frankly, I don’t know, but possibly both as they appear to have several variants on their tables.
I know of a Squadron which tried to find fair ground with their chaplain (a very nice chap as it turns out) by suggesting that the cadets be told that if they would like a bible, they can have one…and that the chaplain could then present bibles to those who would like one.
Disspointingly the chaplain didn’t like that idea because he “didn’t want a situation where someone might say ‘no, thank you, I don’t want a bible’…”
Was just wondering, that’s all! A very noble gesture if they are happy to forego their ‘normal’ practices to encourage understanding. It’s a shame that many religions aren’t generally understanding of others’ beliefs!
No problem, I prayed for the book and made it Christian!! 
Being serious, I didn’t know that. However his mother, who is Saudi, never mentioned the fact. I think she was impressed that that a copy of the book was obtained. (Thankyou Amazon)
It was a full copy as fas as I know, written in Arabic but with the English translation on the opposite page. I got it from Amazon. I am not sure that it would have been accepted if given in a Muslim country as I think that the Qu’ran is only supposed to be written in Arabic. (maybe they make allowance for us ‘infidels’) ( refer to point regarding English translations also mentioned by Sygnus Maximus)
As a former Sqn Cdr in a town with a large Asian population, I thought it would be sensible to have an understanding of their religion, so I bought a Teach Yourself Islam book. It’s excellent and gives a good insight into the history, beliefs, and practicalities of Islam, and it helps you to appreciate, for example, when certain cdts may not attend or where we as adult staff may need to keep a greater watch on young people who may be fasting etc. I commend it to everyone, especially those, like me, who had several Asian cdts on their books.
[quote=“incubus” post=3845]Surely we should be in a position to offer other belief-based books to those who wish to take one, though I don’t think Gideons would be interested in helping out :)[/quote]To be fair, the ATC don’t really control that bit - someone gives us bibles and we hand them on.
I can’t see that anyone would have an issue if other charities wanted to run a similar scheme for other holy books, but I don’t think that the ATC should waste any time or money ‘filling in the gaps’ for other religions from our own resources.
[quote=“MattB” post=3870][quote=“incubus” post=3845]Surely we should be in a position to offer other belief-based books to those who wish to take one, though I don’t think Gideons would be interested in helping out :)[/quote]To be fair, the ATC don’t really control that bit - someone gives us bibles and we hand them on.
I can’t see that anyone would have an issue if other charities wanted to run a similar scheme for other holy books, but I don’t think that the ATC should waste any time or money ‘filling in the gaps’ for other religions from our own resources.[/quote]
Agreed, and so now we come back to the original argument of should the Corps have any religious element to what it does!
TBH, I’d say that actually banning religious expression is as bad as forcing it upon people.
If those who are religious wish to have a small religious element to what should be a slightly important and solemn occasion in their life I really can’t see why that is an issue.
[quote=“MattB” post=3879]TBH, I’d say that actually banning religious expression is as bad as forcing it upon people.
If those who are religious wish to have a small religious element to what should be a slightly important and solemn occasion in their life I really can’t see why that is an issue.[/quote]
Others do though, and 17 pages on here gives you an indication of the strength of feeling both ways.
Isn’t religion a wonderful thing? (comments not necessary)
Others do though…[/quote]
I’m not sure that’s really true.
So far as I can remember (it’s been a long thread) no one has said they want to deny someone the option of adding their own religious element if they wish; just that it shouldn’t be an automatic inclusion for everyone.
Others do though…[/quote]
I’m not sure that’s really true.
So far as I can remember (it’s been a long thread) no one has said they want to deny someone the option of adding their own religious element if they wish; just that it shouldn’t be an automatic inclusion for everyone.[/quote]That.
Others do though…[/quote]
I’m not sure that’s really true.
So far as I can remember (it’s been a long thread) no one has said they want to deny someone the option of adding their own religious element if they wish; just that it shouldn’t be an automatic inclusion for everyone.[/quote]
It has indeed been a thread of epic proportions, and looks to continue in the same manner! I tried to have a quick look through previous posts, but realised it would probably take most of the weekend. Anyway, I think that there have been some contributors who have commented that there is no need to have any reference to religion/deities in the promise at all; equally, some have posted that there should be an option to include a god, my god or whatever they worship. The essence of a fine discussion - this could go on for months!
Others do though…[/quote]
I’m not sure that’s really true.
So far as I can remember (it’s been a long thread) no one has said they want to deny someone the option of adding their own religious element if they wish; just that it shouldn’t be an automatic inclusion for everyone.[/quote]
You are of course, havin’ a larf.
This is referring to teenagers making a choice to take a promise that includes the word God in front of a group of their peers and older who (if the choice existed) probably haven’t, at an age 13/14 mainly, which could result in some serious urine extracting. Teenagers, given the changes they are going through are the most self conscious group in society, so to suggest that it’s an opt in/out for something like this, goes to show that despite being an adult member of staff in a youth organisation and been a teenager yourself, you have little comprehension.
Wait until (assuming that your not) your a parent and your little ones get to about 11 (maybe 10 with girls) as that’s when 5/6 or more years of “fun” really begins.
Could you imagine being a youngster 13/14 with a strong religious belief, faced with the choice will opt for the one which will get them the least hassle. This doesn’t mean a decrease in their belief/faith, it’s taking the option that attracts least grief. I didn’t mention that I went to church from about the ages of 10-18, as it wasn’t worth the grief.
It’s bad enough for many new cadets to stand up and “repeat after me”, without the added pressure that may come with a word. I’ve shook the hand of many a nervous cadet after making the promise, if the sweaty palm they present is anything to go by.
The options are simple keep the word God in or lose it completely and everyone does whatever is decided, I wouldn’t want any of this halfway house nonsense.