I attested in the Founder’s Gallery at CHOM, Cranwell, alongside approx 8 others.
[quote=“abz” post=8208]It would appear that bib brother is watching…
Just got an email - Cadets on enrolment, are to be given the choice of a religious based ‘Cadet Promise’ or a secular one.[/quote]
[quote=“incubus” post=8209][quote=“abz” post=8208]It would appear that bib brother is watching…
Just got an email - Cadets on enrolment, are to be given the choice of a religious based ‘Cadet Promise’ or a secular one.[/quote]
P-Letter 04-13, but doesn’t seem to be on sharepoint yet.[/quote]
Its seems a bit slow filtering down to me, I haven’t had an email updating me and the P letter still isn’t on sharepoint. Would one of you please either quote exactly what has been said or send me a PM with the details?
I’ve not recieved an email either, but it’s now on sharepoint.
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/P%20Letters/P%20Letter%2013-05.doc
[quote=“P Letter 13-05”]With immediate effect, cadets are to be offered a choice of promise when they enrol and may opt for either the Religious or Alternative Promise as follows:
Religious Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to God and the Queen
My country and my flag.
or
Alternative Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to the Queen
My country and my flag.
Cadets must be given a free choice of the Promise that they make.[/quote]
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=8286]I’ve not recieved an email either, but it’s now on sharepoint.
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/QM/P%20Letters/P%20Letter%2013-05.doc
[quote=“P Letter 13-05”]With immediate effect, cadets are to be offered a choice of promise when they enrol and may opt for either the Religious or Alternative Promise as follows:
Religious Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to God and the Queen
My country and my flag.
or
Alternative Promise
I solemnly promise on my honour
To serve my unit loyally
And to be faithful to my obligations
As a member of the Air Training Corps
I further promise to be a good citizen
And to do my duty to the Queen
My country and my flag.
Cadets must be given a free choice of the Promise that they make.[/quote][/quote]
So exactly what a lot of units have been doing for a long time now then :ohmy:
Nonetheless, it’s now official!
Well done ACO on the brilliant rewording of the Cadet Promise. That must have taken a lot of thought! Also that by making this change have Chaplains had their Article 9 rights iaw The European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms breached? This stipulates that “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom either alone or in community with others,and in public or in private to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.”
Although nothing has been said on the subject, is the way the Enrollment Service is prepared for in ACP 9 also going to change?
Where Article 9 may be breached is in relation to Matthew 28 verses 19 and 20: "Go ye therefore and teach…(v19) and verse 20 says "…Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
So (applicable to those taking the revised promise): Chaplains will not be able to say the word ‘God’ in their enrollment service. It follows that if they omit God from the enrollment then the Chaplain should not be able to teach about God in the lead up to the enrollment, The Chaplain is therefore denied the opportunity to apply one of the most important passages of Scripture therefore Article 9 Rights have been breached.
Seriously?
You honestly believe that your human rights are affected because you’re not allowed to preach to those who have specifically chosen a non-religious option? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse?
I think this topic has run its course.
Locked.
1 Like
Is it still locked?
No. It was probably locked on the old forum software which didn’t transfer that part of the content.
Has this policy changed from the old system described in the thread (about the cadet promise etc)
It still says ‘God and the Queen’, we still have a Queen
Eventually they’ll need to change it to King…
If I remember correctly (from the history of the ATC DVDs that were issued recently), the initial promise consisted of just the first paragraph. I don’t know when the 2nd paragraph was bolted on (and it feels bolted on) and it may be best for the future if we unbolt it and just stick with the first, uncontentious paragraph.
I still hold with my statements earlier in this thread somewhere that we don’t need a promise at all and we don’t really need an enrolment ceremony either.
It is somewhat anachronistic in today’s world, where religion plays no real part in people’s lives (unless it’s hatch, match and dispatch) and people who do have a faith of any colour but especially Christian are ridiculed, a lot of people are not really Monarchists and making a promise to serve anyone or thing loyally (in a world where marriage is regarded as a throw away) means nothing.
I’d say lose it purely on the basis that staff don’t make a promise and none of it means anything to 99.99999% of cadets.
I’d liken it to the employment contract we are expected to sign, it may get signed but given we aren’t employed so suffer as a consequence if not being fully compliant, it is just a pointless document filled with empty words.
Until the changes are made wouldn’t the best way be to allow the cadets to simply not say the words that associate to religion if they are inclined not to? That’s what I did when I got enrolled.
I’ve always been offered an alternative promise by our Padre that doesn’t include a reference to God
I’m not sure what “changes” you’re waiting for ArshamMG?
The Cadet Promise was changed 5 years ago and since then we should be offering all cadets the option of saying “god” or not during enrollment.
In that time I can count the number of cadets who’ve chosen the religious version on one hand.
Frankly, I think it’s time that we remove the “choice” and just make the non-religious option the standard.
If an individual wants to think about their own, personal, duty to their God then that is there right; But do we as an organisation really need to provide the opportunity, the “opt-out”, or sadly in some cases still, the expectation, for every cadet to say it out loud as part of their enrollment into to this, a completely non-religious organisation?
the change to this
I didn’t actually say it at all. We don’t seem big on the enrolment ceremony thing.
We don’t do proper ‘enrolments’ on our squadron