Then there were 25

[quote=“Perry Mason” post=8910]Nice lively bit of debate! I like that!

My point of view (and it will undoubtedly differ from VGS to VGS) is that FSCs are seen by the VGS as their “property”. Any push for those cadets to attend non VGS activities (however occasional) are met with “flying takes priority blah blah blah”.

But I think this is a little short sighted.

Surely cadets get the best “experience” by taking part in ALL the ATC has to offer, and not just 1 area to the detriment of all else?

Given the abject lack of flying jobs (not just in the RAF but in the civil world too) just focusing on being a stick monkey is very narrow, and cadets are likely to get better life experience by taking some part in the non VGS activities on offer?

There is also a habit (which will of course differ from cadet to cadet) of some FSCs getting the opinion that they are somehow better than other cadets because they help out on a VGS (remember issues with JLs… same thing, different flavour). Might help VGSs if they addressed that issue and became a little more co-operative in nature, rather than insular and appearing to self serve, when that is probably not the case for most.[/quote]

It’s called freedom of choice. If the cadet is pulling out the “flying takes precedence card” it’s probably because there’s something else that they’d rather do and they’re entitled to do it. If you’re a squadron commander and you don’t want the cadet to be pulled away from your squadron by the lure of free flying every weekend, have the courage of your convictions, be a good little dictator and don’t endorse the FSC application form when it crosses your desk. Simples. Don’t complain about it on the internet instead.

I can’t think of a single instance where a FSC was told by a VGS CO that they cannot attend a course or activity because they were NEEDED on the Sqn that day. In my cadet experience, most of us, as we became more senior chose to specialise in certain areas. Some people were AT monsters, others enjoyed turning lead into brass, others became band geeks. Etc. Etc. Some even became drill fetishists for whatever reason. Let them all crack on, I say.

As for the lack of career opportunities, do you mean to suggest they shouldn’t even try? I’d argue the contrary. If they have a talent for flying, they should be encouraged to develop it. (As an aside I’d like to hear a case to be made where winning a Cadet 100 or being able to walk in a straight line while banging a drum is considered a greater transferable skill.) Ceteris parabus, the FSC who walks into an interview room at OASC or BA Waterfront is going to have a considerable leg up over the guy or girl who didn’t bother joining the air cadets or the one who hadn’t flown after their GS. Being selected and serving as an FSC shows that someone else has recognised a talent, it shows that they can work in a team and that they can work harder and to a higher standard than most of their peer group. If FSC get the impression that they’re better than their fellow cadets, then the number show that- when it comes to flying at least- they are. In a wing of around 800 cadets, in any given year, 40 of them will be awarded a GS. Of those, 2 will be selected for AGT1. Besides, their arrogance tends to be held firmly in check on the VGS where they are very much at the bottom of the food chain.

With the old RAF flying scholarships gone, air cadet gliding is the only thing left in this country where young people can develop their flying abilities to a meaningful degree without being subsidised by the bank of Mum & Dad.

[quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=8901][quote=“MattB” post=8890]Because the aircraft and crews are available, and flying takes priority over everything else?

I often hear people whinging that their unit has been allocated flying/gliding on such a day, but if it didn’t happen on that day then it’d be a day lost forever. The only issue would be if the same squadron got the slots on those days every year.[/quote]

Unless they are tasked with doing a flypast of some sorts, they wear the same uniform as the rest of us (when not chatting about their last sortie) and therefore should be on parade with either the local town or Sqn close to their residence.[/quote]Agree to disagree then.

If there’s an opportunity to get cadets up in the air, I feel that we should take it no matter which weekend it is.

I will remind you all again:

Personal insults are not permitted. Please feel free to debate and disagree, but DO NOT post anything calling other users names.

[quote=“MattB” post=8922]If there’s an opportunity to get cadets up in the air, I feel that we should take it no matter which weekend it is.[/quote]Despite what many in the organisation may choose to believe, flying is NOT our highest priority: the support and development of our cadets is!

With all respect due to The Few, BoB Sunday is an RAF pats-on-the-back event; the national remembrance events are far more important and that needs to be recognised by this organisation as a whole. That means that we do nothing on Remembrance Sunday which will detract from the opportunity for all members of the ACO (including VR(T)) to take part in remembrance activities.

The VGSs should park their plastic steeds for the day, hang up their grobags (pass the kleenex ;)) find the iron and polish and join the rest of us at their local remembrance activity. If there is still time in the day I am sure they can find some other aviation-related activity to wile away the hours but they should plan to do it without squadron support.

The VGS system do indeed have a job to do and that job is to provide flying to cadets. If they have no cadets then I guess they’ll just need to do some other VGS-related thing to do in preparation for the time when the cadets are available.

Again, what is the first aim of the Air Training Corps?

If you don’t want to attend a gliding date on Remembrance Day, jut let your WGLO know. He/she will be able to find replacements from one of your neighbouring sqns in about 5 mins flat.

[quote]The VGSs should park their plastic steeds for the day, hang up their grobags (pass the kleenex ;)) find the iron and polish and join the rest of us at their local remembrance activity. If there is still time in the day I am sure they can find some other aviation-related activity to wile away the hours but they should plan to do it without squadron support.

The VGS system do indeed have a job to do and that job is to provide flying to cadets. If they have no cadets then I guess they’ll just need to do some other VGS-related thing to do in preparation for the time when the cadets are available.[/quote]

Again, for the hard of understanding, about 70-80% of VGS staff are CIVILIAN GLIDING INSTRUCTORS, not VR(T). Do you make your Sqn CI’s parade down the street with you? Honestly? I’m a little uncertain of what you mean by the “support” given by ATC squadrons, but I can assure you that a lack of GIC/GS/AGT cadets to fly would be seen as a prime opportunity for most squadrons to catch up on SCT, such as developing new instructors, providing pre-course work-ups to pilots and instructors heading to Syerston, renewing Transit Quals and flying NAVEXs in Vigilants, earning Bronze and Silver Cs and practicing aerobatics for the Vikings and all the other fun stuff we’re allowed to do on a VGS but typically lag behind on because the sqns are too busy serving the customers- so please spare us your self-righteous lecturing about how self-serving VGS instructors are. We’re on the same side, serving the same people. It’s just that some of us are required to display rather more professionalism than others…

We dont need to “make” our CI’s parade down the street infact they ask every year to do it out of resepect.

I was at a VGS this weekend some of the staff (the RAF officers) were great but the civvy staff were more intrested in getting their friends and family up than the cadets which were working there backsides off pushing gliders around in stupid heat while the staff cadets just stood around chatting that is out of order!

Why don’t you get off your high horse and see what the rest of the ATC has to put up with? More professional, what a load of tripe, and if you really believe that, rather than just trying the keyboard warrior routine then you’re frankly deluded.

[quote=“zinggy” post=9065]We dont need to “make” our CI’s parade down the street infact they ask every year to do it out of resepect.

I was at a VGS this weekend some of the staff (the RAF officers) were great but the civvy staff were more intrested in getting their friends and family up than the cadets which were working there backsides off pushing gliders around in stupid heat while the staff cadets just stood around chatting that is out of order![/quote]

I too was on a VGS this weekend where the 4 yes 4 (thats hard work on a Viking squadron) worked their butts off in 40 degree cockpit temperatures to make sure all the cadets flew GIC, GS and AGT and that 95% of the flights had cadets on board. Now they all had a great time, or so they told me. Now if you had a different experience and they were just flying friends and family which of course would only be on an authorised F&F day endorsed by 3FTS and your cadets missed out I’m sure you’ll feed that back to the squadron OC who would deal with an issues like that?

If they don’t know they won’t be able to change?

Trust me they know…

Having read this thread (yet another VGS bashing thread) i thought I would make my thoughts known.

The first puzzling thought I have is, If CO’s are so against letting Cadets become FSC’s why do they sign their applications? No signed no application form no join VGS, simples!

“Staff cadets strutting around in grow bags has been bandied around in this thread”, they are teenagers, teenagers strut around in anything! I have seen cadets in Greens strutting around like they are in the SAS (Mind you I have seen enough CI’s and VR(T)'s doing the same!) Its nature, they feel like they have achieved something. I

Finally if you have an issue with your local VGS raise it with someone such as the VGS CO, OC CGS or OC 3 FTS. If there is a problem they need to know about it to address it. If you just spend your time twisiting your faces on an online forum, things will not change! Grasp the nettle and do something about it.

Mods can we now get this thread back on track!

Boff, there may be a little VGS bashing, but ahve you ever heard the phrase “no smoke without fire”?

I think the simple fact is (like many “normal” squadrons) VGSs are a mixed bag.

Some very good, some very bad, most will probably be somewhere between.

Many staff/cadets have had bad experiences of VGSs or their staff - isn’t it better to discuss and address those issues than just pretend all is well. If we do that then nothing ever progresses.

I am sure many of the concerns have been pushed up through the COC, but there are a number which don’t ever seem to get addressed.

As for the issue about losing cadets to FSC “jobs” I refer back to my earlier post where I suggested a collaborative approach rather than what often comes across as “winged master race” attitude beacuse “flying trumps everything else”.

I put enough warnings out, and this thread has been locked for failing to heed them.