Then there were 25

Everyone Flying
21

[quote=“stevenhawkingstennisracquet” post=8846]Dry your eyes, it’s what was to be expected of him when his OC Sqn and OC wing signed his paperwork:

"AIR CADET PERSONNEL REGULATIONS, PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 505, APPOINTMENT OF FLIGHT STAFF CADETS TO VOLUNTEER GLIDING SQUADRONS
…

  1. VGS requirements are normally to take precedence over Sqn/Contingent duties except where FSCs are required for attendance at ATC/CCF annual camps and other major scheduled events[/quote]
    I think the box of kleenex needs to be issued to the VGS. This instruction gives Sqn Cdrs considerable leeway when they decide what actually constitutes ‘major scheduled events’. If the Sqn Cdr decides that an event ie: fundraising, Armed Forces Day, Rememberance Day etc is sufficiently ‘major’, then THEY get first dibs. Back when I was a Sqn Cdr, I had this argument with a VGS my CWO was on. The VGS lost.

Bless. Airframe jocks have always been full of their own self-importance.

22

(Mental note: do not feed the troll.)

23

I’m guessing 635 & 645 are still able to deliver the level of service required, being able to operate with fewer staff in the Vigi set up. Don’t know about 643&644 but 621 & 625 were markedly different in size mean one was hitting output targets left right and centre while the other was struggling.

Seem to have to opposite of what aerobat is saying over this way as its normally the GIC / GS scrubbing flying because there might be a shower somewhere in England.[/quote]

Vigilant squadrons typically have fewer aircraft, spend less time in the circuit and are more easily able to move to different parts of the local training area. There’s less congestion, therefore both squadrons can operate together safely.

24

[quote=“stevenhawkingstennisracquet” post=8846]Dry your eyes, it’s what was to be expected of him when his OC Sqn and OC wing signed his paperwork:

"AIR CADET PERSONNEL REGULATIONS, PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 505, APPOINTMENT OF FLIGHT STAFF CADETS TO VOLUNTEER GLIDING SQUADRONS
…

  1. VGS requirements are normally to take precedence over Sqn/Contingent duties except where FSCs are required for attendance at ATC/CCF annual camps and other major scheduled events. In such circumstances, the OC of the cadet’s Sqn/Contingent is to give the OC VGS adequate warning."

In other words, the VGS has first dibs on him, since a) he’s needed to work, b) they’re spending a considerable amount of time, effort and money to train him to become a pilot.[/quote]

You are aware that the rest of the ATC isn’t here to service VGSs right…? Its actually the other way around. Might be worth remembering that.

25

The VGS is there to provide training and flying experience for air cadets and it seems to me that having a cadet move onto working with/for the VGS and gain advanced flying training with the potential to instruct your other cadets is a fairly impressive experience and something which should be welcomed.

Perhaps squadrons who bemoan their cadets pursuing their interests should think whether they are being a little selfish in their attitudes. Remember, squadrons exist to provide opportunities to their cadets too; cadets are not there to be at the beck and call of the squadron.

26

Yet again I must remind you all that this is not the place to be discussing issues with various VGSs. Take them up with the VGS themselves or your WExO, but don’t post them on here and give yourselves a bad name.

27

[quote=“Perry Mason” post=8862][quote=“stevenhawkingstennisracquet” post=8846]Dry your eyes, it’s what was to be expected of him when his OC Sqn and OC wing signed his paperwork:

"AIR CADET PERSONNEL REGULATIONS, PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 505, APPOINTMENT OF FLIGHT STAFF CADETS TO VOLUNTEER GLIDING SQUADRONS
…

  1. VGS requirements are normally to take precedence over Sqn/Contingent duties except where FSCs are required for attendance at ATC/CCF annual camps and other major scheduled events. In such circumstances, the OC of the cadet’s Sqn/Contingent is to give the OC VGS adequate warning."

In other words, the VGS has first dibs on him, since a) he’s needed to work, b) they’re spending a considerable amount of time, effort and money to train him to become a pilot.[/quote]

You are aware that the rest of the ATC isn’t here to service VGSs right…? Its actually the other way around. Might be worth remembering that.[/quote]

I’m going to try to give a more polite response than your post warrants.

Firstly, a question- your starter for 10, if you will:

What is the first aim of the Air Training Corps?

Secondly, the ACO exists to provide cadets with as many opportunities as possible. It is not supposed to be a place for staff to empire build. If your squadron’s wellbeing is contingent upon the hard work provided by a single cadet who cannot be spared, then as a member of staff, you are failing in your job. The opportunity to become a FSC is a rare one. The way the VGSs’ tasking is structured, for every 20 cadets that go through the GS syllabus, only 1 will be offered a place on an AGT 1 course, which is the next rung on the ladder, and is only supposed to be offered if the cadet is giving serious consideration to becoming a service pilot or a VGS instructor. If, as a squadron commander, you feel that it is more important for the cadet to serve his/her squadron on weekends, rather than serve on a VGS, then just don’t sign the paper work which pretty much hands them over to the VGS on weekends. Once you do that, though, good luck explaining to the cadet why it’s more important that they hang around to pack bags at Tesco on the weekend for you. I’m sure they wouldn’t be at all resentful and will carry on cheerfully.

I can’t think of a single VGS OC who would mind an FSC taking Remembrance Sunday off to parade with their squadron and, likewise, I can’t think of one who wouldn’t let the FSC off to go and do something else they’d want to do, unless it clashed with something like a CFS/CGS inspection. If, on the other hand, the FSC would rather go flying than anything else you have to offer them, then that’s your problem, not the cadets. Life is all about choices and FSCs make theirs, just like any other cadet when it comes to any ACO activity.

28

Here’s a thought, why do VGS have taskings for Remembrance and BofB parade days?

29

Because the aircraft and crews are available, and flying takes priority over everything else?

I often hear people whinging that their unit has been allocated flying/gliding on such a day, but if it didn’t happen on that day then it’d be a day lost forever. The only issue would be if the same squadron got the slots on those days every year.

30

[quote=“MattB” post=8890]Because the aircraft and crews are available, and flying takes priority over everything else?

I often hear people whinging that their unit has been allocated flying/gliding on such a day, but if it didn’t happen on that day then it’d be a day lost forever. The only issue would be if the same squadron got the slots on those days every year.[/quote]
The question I ask is why aren’t they observing it? I would suggest, have the tasking but only for PM slots and keep it local so that staff and cadets can do the parade and then go.

31

Well not really when all the other cadets put all the time in to events that raise cash for the sqn Im not saying he has to be at the sqn all the time but now and then would be nice[/quote]

Dry your eyes, it’s what was to be expected of him when his OC Sqn and OC wing signed his paperwork:

"AIR CADET PERSONNEL REGULATIONS, PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 505, APPOINTMENT OF FLIGHT STAFF CADETS TO VOLUNTEER GLIDING SQUADRONS
…

  1. VGS requirements are normally to take precedence over Sqn/Contingent duties except where FSCs are required for attendance at ATC/CCF annual camps and other major scheduled events. In such circumstances, the OC of the cadet’s Sqn/Contingent is to give the OC VGS adequate warning."

In other words, the VGS has first dibs on him, since a) he’s needed to work, b) they’re spending a considerable amount of time, effort and money to train him to become a pilot.[/quote]

Dry my eyes?? if you read my post I said it would be nice to see him on the sqn now and then not all the time

32

FSCs are PITA, poncing prima donna’s who swan around thinking they are God’s gift. I’ve had two from my sqn and they were somewhere between a motorcycle ashtray and chocolate fireguard.
I reminded them that it is in general every other weekend and parade nights with their squadron and that if I didn’t see them for sqn activities when they weren’t on the VGS rota then a call to the OC at the VGS for him to take appropriate action. Which when I spoke to him would be suspension from FSC duties. They saw sense, didn’t like it but hey ho.
I didn’t deny them extra weekends as required, but did expect them to contribute to the sqn, afterall without the sqn, they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to learn to glide and then the invitation to become an FSC.

33

[quote=“MattB” post=8890]Because the aircraft and crews are available, and flying takes priority over everything else?

I often hear people whinging that their unit has been allocated flying/gliding on such a day, but if it didn’t happen on that day then it’d be a day lost forever. The only issue would be if the same squadron got the slots on those days every year.[/quote]

Unless they are tasked with doing a flypast of some sorts, they wear the same uniform as the rest of us (when not chatting about their last sortie) and therefore should be on parade with either the local town or Sqn close to their residence.

34

Nice lively bit of debate! I like that!

My point of view (and it will undoubtedly differ from VGS to VGS) is that FSCs are seen by the VGS as their “property”. Any push for those cadets to attend non VGS activities (however occasional) are met with “flying takes priority blah blah blah”.

But I think this is a little short sighted.

Surely cadets get the best “experience” by taking part in ALL the ATC has to offer, and not just 1 area to the detriment of all else?

Given the abject lack of flying jobs (not just in the RAF but in the civil world too) just focusing on being a stick monkey is very narrow, and cadets are likely to get better life experience by taking some part in the non VGS activities on offer?

There is also a habit (which will of course differ from cadet to cadet) of some FSCs getting the opinion that they are somehow better than other cadets because they help out on a VGS (remember issues with JLs… same thing, different flavour). Might help VGSs if they addressed that issue and became a little more co-operative in nature, rather than insular and appearing to self serve, when that is probably not the case for most.

35

Spot on!!!

That is pretty much how I and every other member of staff I know see it.

36

Maybe the reason VGS are “possessive” of their FSCs is the length of time it takes to get an output from the inputand the llosses along the way? Certainly in the case of one of these merged squadrons I’m sure staff numbers probably played a part in the decision.

An average attending, average ability FSC is likely to take a couple of years to get to an instructor level, add into that ther percentage lost when they go to university or join the forces etc plus the equipment support issues aircraft availability, winch serviceability, accommodation issues, increase in regulatory factors and they all apply a drag factor to staff development. For every 10 staff cadets you put in the start of the system you’re get 1 maybe 2 instructors out the other end and the only way to speed up the process is to increase the attendance rate.and without the new instructors coming through the cycle starts to fail and the number of GIC and GS places fall breeding a self feeding cycle of decline.

37

Are there any stats available to support your assumptions? I’m not trying to belittle your comments but it would be interesting to see if any statistics are held by VGS’s or 3FTS which would tell us exactly what the attrition rate is.

BTW, I’m talking solid facts - not this tennis racquet geezer giving us his personal (not to mention slightly biased) slant on things.

38

There are possibly some localised stats I could pull together though I expect they are fairly indicative of the wider rates. Though there is a fairly good indicator in that CGS are running 140 instructor courses every year always over subscribed yet the number of active instructors is static, guess that is why the issue of bonding instructors for period after a course was discussed earlier this year.

39

[quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=8901][quote=“MattB” post=8890]Because the aircraft and crews are available, and flying takes priority over everything else?

I often hear people whinging that their unit has been allocated flying/gliding on such a day, but if it didn’t happen on that day then it’d be a day lost forever. The only issue would be if the same squadron got the slots on those days every year.[/quote]

Unless they are tasked with doing a flypast of some sorts, they wear the same uniform as the rest of us (when not chatting about their last sortie) and therefore should be on parade with either the local town or Sqn close to their residence.[/quote]

Flying and gliding takes precedence over all other air cadet activities.

As a practical matter, in the case of every VGS I’ve served, those who were part of ATC squadrons (supernumary staff and FSCs) do go and parade with squadrons.

As to why the VGSs don’t stand down, it’s fairly simple. We have a job to do, so we’ll do it and observe the 2min silence. In the middle of November flying days can be hard to come by. It’s not unheard of for a GS to spend 3 months of weekends or more waiting for the weather to complete their course. If that one day presents an opportunity to do something productive, then it’ll be taken.

PS. The overwhelming majority of VGS instructors and pilots are Civilian Gliding Instructors (around 75% in the case of my VGS), so no, we don’t all wear the same uniform.

40

[quote=“Gunner” post=8917]Are there any stats available to support your assumptions? I’m not trying to belittle your comments but it would be interesting to see if any statistics are held by VGS’s or 3FTS which would tell us exactly what the attrition rate is.

BTW, I’m talking solid facts - not this tennis racquet geezer giving us his personal (not to mention slightly biased) slant on things.[/quote]

While I try and dig out some data for GUNNER, I’ll give you some personal observations. I’m now in my second stint at a VGS, I serve on an ATC squadron and I’m my wing’s WGLO. If my opinion might seem biased to him, then perhaps it’s because I have a lot more experience to speak from and I think it counts for something. If someone else who has some actual experience on a VGS (other than their quarterly visit with their squadrons) has some thoughts that contradict mine, then I’m all ears.

Most GS students we get are 16-17. Most go through their courses on weekends and it’ll take a couple of months. If they show promise, we’ll throw them into AGT, which will be another month or two to get done. Then they’re taken on staff and they begin Staff Continuation Training- which in the case of the Vigilant is 30hrs minimum post 1st solo to G1, or 150 launches in the Viking. IF the FSC pitches up every weekend and IF the weather is good and IF the training programme permits it (non-essential SCT ranking lower than essential SCT, GIC, GS and AGT flying) then on a good day, you’re looking at 9 months to train someone to G1 standard at least. Of course, it’s never that simple. Weather gets in the way, obviously. Not to mention the other stuff on the training programme. Then there’s the problem we all face insofar as the FSCs tend to be amongst the brightest and most ambitious, so you’re also competing against school pressures. Bottom line, even with GOOD attendance (75%+)at the VGS), you’re realistically looking at about 12 months. Of course, many are high-achieving cadets who still want to participate in the range of activities the Corps has to offer, so they’re also going to have to balance things like Gold DofE, JL, BEL etc. The IACE alone will take 3-4 weeks’ training away from them during the peak flying season, as will courses like the ACPS. Some WILL fall by the wayside.

When I became a FSC 22 years ago, of the 4 of us who joined at the same time, 3 of us made it to C Cat (B2 now) and that took 3 to 4 years. Two of us made it to B Cat (B1) within another 2 years. The time scales are more or less the same, but the attrition rates are much higher because of competing commitment and interests. Today, on the VGS with which I currently serve, of the last 6 FSCs we took on, 1 made it to G1 and he’s left to begin his ATPL training. Others we lost due to university.

Always be mindful of the fact that your first responsibility as CFAV’s is to help develop individuals and to support them wherever possible. If you push them too hard into making decisions they don’t want to make, they can walk as soon as they turn 18 and become CGIs- just at the point when they can become really valuable to you. It’s also the lesson that was related to OC CGS by the VGS OCs. Yes, it would be nice if the attrition rate from graded pilots-junior instructors-senior instructors wasn’t so high. It’s important to build a robust cadre of instructors with a great deal of experience, but ultimately, that is not why we are in this business and that is a big difference between us and the RAF. The RAF trains people to complete a mission. The ACO’s mission is to train people. We exist to spur people on to bigger and better things and like a VGS CO should not begrudge an 18yr old for going to university and joining a UAS or getting on the British Airways Future Pilot Programme, a squadron OC should not be bitter if their cadets choose to take a step closer to a possible career. Becoming a VGS instructor is never the ultimate goal for a cadet with the ability to become a Typhoon or a 787 pilot, just as the ultimate goal of becoming a CWO isn’t the goal of someone with the ability to become an RAF officer.