Having some time on my hands I have just perused the news Conditions of service contained in the New Personel manual- ACP20b
Interesting changes are-
ALL CFAV must meet the previously imposed VRT nationality requirements- including CI’S
An absolute upper age limit for all Uniformed staff of 57 (55 with the commandant able to extend to 57 only)
I am led to believe that these changes are absolute and not for negotiation.
Also- a full disciplinary system- broadly similar for all except VRT are to be regulated in accordance with the disciplinary statutes in QR’s. It consists of Minor and Major administrative action.
I wonder, given that parent service devotes a lot of time to explain how this all works to OC’s if there is going to be any training rolled out?
Looking around my Wing the age thing will pretty much clear us out I think- shudder to think of the effect at Region!
My reading of this that CAC can extend officers over 55 for 2 year periods, note the plural, and this will repeat until the justification no longer remains, as such their their is no upper age limit for officers or NCOs providing a justification of the individual remaining in uniform remains. The only upper age limit is 65 for CGIs, although more commonly 60.
[quote=“redowling” post=8748]Interestingly the nationality requirements are in contradiction to AP1919 (and the referencing within AP1919 now appears to be wrong):
I wonder if they did an impact assessment before bringing that rule in?[/quote]
But no one can be cleared iaw with ACP 20 PI 229 as it no longer exsists :!:
I read this as normally one should retire at 55 as an officer but you can be extended past that date for 2 years at a time if Comdt ACO agrees you’re suitable.
It then goes on to say
MY BOLD
So in summary, I read both of those to say there is no upper age limit (except 70 yrs for QFIs).
To add further to this PI 303 Para 4c says
So there is no upper age limit as long as the person in question is able to do the job!
Is kicking someone out of a job at age 55 not age discrimination?
Surely enforcing a mandatory age limit at which you are no longer suitable to extend for the standard period as somoene who is 10 years younger than you is discrimination?
I know some 40 year olds that aren’t fit enough (not physically per se) to do the job, and I know some 70 year olds that could run rings round most people here.
I don’t think Age Discrimination Act applies in the same way to the Armed Forces as it would to a private sector worker. I seem to remember they have special provisions for Armed Forces, Police Officers and other servants of the crown. I’m sure someone on here will be able to enlighten us more about that. I don’t have the time to google all afternoon!
[quote=“Baldrick” post=8768][quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=8767]THIS IS NOT A JOB.
The age discrimination act does not apply.[/quote]
age discrimination doesn’t just apply to employment law you know…[/quote]
And although it isnt a job (bloody well seems like one some times!) the status (especially of VRT) is somewhat confused and the MOD has been taken to employment tribunals successfully.
Now if we werent in some way considered “employed” surely the cases I am aware of wouldn’t have succeeded at Tribunal?
Age limits can be imposed on Officers, because as members of the RAFVR/RAFR and members of the Reserve Forces within RFA96, the RAF/MOD can apply age limits in their T&COS/regulations. The Armed Forces have an exemption from certain aspects of the act “in the interests of combat effectiveness” …not quite sure who that would stand up in court however, since VR(T) Officers are exempted from their call out liability …does the “military” age discrimination exemption (from the Equality Act 2010) still apply in these circumstances?
It is upper age limits for entry and departure as an SNCO/WO(ATC) where I think the ACO is on sticky ground with the Equality Act 2010. Since SNCOs/WOs(ATC) are not members of the RAFVR/RAFR and/or the Reserve Forces (WRT RFA96), there is no “military” exemption from the age discrimination aspects of the Equality Act 2010 …and the Act applies to voluntary organisations as much as employers if they provide a “public service” within the meaning of the Act.
One more reason for SNCOs & WOs to go VR(T) in my view!
The reason that AP1919 is now out of sync with ACP20 is because 1919 is only reviewed/updated on a periodic basis.
If the RAF/MOD is pushing the nationality requirement issue, you can expect an update of 1919 in respect of that in due course.
Rgnl Comdts will not be subject to any of this, since they are employed as Civil Servants under the old RAFR(Civil Component) system, or the new Military Support Function (MSF) system, and commissioned into the RAFVR(T) to give them an Air Force rank. If they are under MSF/VR(T)T&COS, then arguably there will always be grounds to extend their service “in the interests of the Corps”, since they need an RAF rank to discharge their duties within the ATC/chain of commmand.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=8768][quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=8767]THIS IS NOT A JOB.
The age discrimination act does not apply.[/quote]
age discrimination doesn’t just apply to employment law you know…[/quote]
Fully aware of that thanks, and whilst we are being picky it’s the Equality Act 2010 now. The upper age limit is not a discriminating factor as the ACO can objectively show their reasoning’s (i.e. we are not offering products or services (selling)) and there are alternative methods to allow service outside of the uniform arena.
Age discrimination is in the Equality Act 2010 it’s not a stand alone act anymore, and I wonder if the argument it doesn’t apply would survive if anyone contested it? They would need to have some pretty good arguments not to in the light of a number of our senior officers being beyond “retirement age”.
Given it’s a hobby and not a job the deciding factor is whether or not you personally want to continue, it should be us signing to say yes we are prepared to carry on for another x years and that is all that is reuired. There are no real physical demands to our roles to make an upper ‘age’ a requirement or enforcable. It’s not like we have any call-up liability requiring us to run around or anything.
The normal upper age limit for officers filling appointments at ATC units including VGSs, is their 55th birthday. Comdt ACO has the authority to extend beyond this for period[color=#ff0000]s[/color] of up to 2 years subject to justification and if it is considered to be in the best interests of the ACO.[/quote]
The point being that after the age of 55, Offrs can be extended for periods of 2yrs, at the discretion of the Comdt. There is no absolute limit of 57 …at age 57 you might be extended again to age 59, and so on …or you might not be extended at all.
Exactly the same regulation for WOs & SNCOs(ATC) in PI303.
Age discrimination is in the Equality Act 2010 it’s not a stand alone act anymore, and I wonder if the argument it doesn’t apply would survive if anyone contested it? They would need to have some pretty good arguments not to in the light of a number of our senior officers being beyond “retirement age”.[/quote]
[quote=“ACP20 PI201”]ELIGIBILITY FOR APPOINTMENT TO A COMMISSION
The conditions of eligibility for appointment to a Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training) (RAFVR(T)) commission are set out in Reference A. Potential commissioning applicants must be serving in the Air Cadet Organisation as either a Civilian Instructor (CI), non-commissioned officer (SNCO/WO(ATC)) or Cadet Warrant Officer (CWO). A CWO may apply up to 6 months after leaving cadet service but no longer. If the time limit is exceeded, ex-CWOs must be appointed as either a CI or SNCO, and serve at least 3 months, prior to putting in a commissioning application. It is also permitted for currently serving commissioned personnel of other Reserve Forces to apply for a RAFVR(T) commission. The minimum age for an ATC/VGS/AEF commission is 20 years or 18 years for CCF(RAF). An Armed Forces exemption under the age discrimination legislation enables the use of maximum ages for entry into Service. Therefore, the upper age limit for appointment to RAFVR(T) commissions in the ATC/VGS/CCF is 50 years. Applicants over the age of 50 will only be considered by HQ Air Cadets if the chain of command provide a written business case for approval (see paras 22-23).
[/quote]Exemption for entry only.