Struggling against Discipline

Cadets Ask the Staff
1

Hey,
So I have recently become the highest rank at my sqn (cdt Flt Sgt) after all the others have gone to university. Since they left, I have been struggling with discipline. Currently, I have 5 corporals and that’s it. However, 3 of those are newly promoted and the other 2 have been the rank for years but have not improved (so are not ready for promotion).

Despite my best efforts to get them to aid in discipline, nothing is working. Staff do try but ultimately tell me to ‘get a grip on them’, but I am struggling to do so without exhausting my techniques.

In summary, anyone got any ideas as to how to get discipline back up again??
Thank you :slight_smile:

2

This sound very similar to a situation i had some time ago, my advice is too split your exact problem down, and tackle each area in turn.
so starting from the top, enlisting staff help to empower you to deal with your Cpl’s then your cadets when you’re ready.

3

Thank you! I will try and see what needs to be dealt with and sort them out :slight_smile: it is such an annoying situation so I’m glad I’m not the only one to go/have been through this.

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4

Either that or drill them until they give in.

When I was a cadet we wouldn’t even attempt to speak to our CWO without getting a dirty look and a chewing. It was his Sqn and we all new it.

I agree with the previous post though. Take each Cpl to one side and see why they aren’t pulling their weight. Give them a responsibility either as a flight commander or a responsibility in something else. Something they can get stuck into and if they succeed they are praised for.

Just remember a pat on the back for good work is worth it’s weight.

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5

Yeah, drill is a big thing at our sqn. But it seems that the lack of discipline means that cdts cant be bothered and so mess up even the simplest of drill movements ( like halting at the same time!). We do this thing where if they have been told something more then once like keeping the noise down, then we stand them at shun for 1min, 2min etc, and that seems to work but its a waste of time in reality.

And we do give them responsibilities. All of them have something that they are in charge of in a way but only a few take it up fully. Trust me, if they do something right or come up with a good idea, I praise them :). I would be a horrible Flt Sgt if I didn’t praise them at all :'D.

We have monthly nco meetings so maybe I will take them aside like you say and talk to each of them individually. See what they think is going wrong and maybe give them something else to do as well.

Thank you for the advise!

6

Do that and you will end up with an allegation of bullying at squadron or higher. Not a good idea.

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7

Have you asked them to step up their game?
if you have and they are not working hard enough, maybe ask them why they are not doing their job and if they have a valid reason try and tackle that problem from there.

8

Trust me, I have! My CO, adult Flt Sgt and myself have all sat them down (not individually) and asked, begged and scared them into stepping up. We had a night where a cdt had said it was sports the following night (meant to be greens) but non of the NCO’s picked up on this and correct them. Therefore, all of the ncos got in trouble for not working as a team as half of the cdts turned up in sports (including me who got asked to ‘get control over them’ even though I wasn’t down that night due to work and don’t get told anything).

I may just sit them all down individually like it has been mentioned before and see what is going wrong from their perspective. |Failing that, I’m gunna have to threaten non promotions as that’s all they seem to care about :confused:

9

The sitting them down individually sounds like a good idea , if you can get their perspective then you might have more success in getting the discipline up!

10

Not wanting to downplay your situation, but I’d assume you were a Sgt or FS at the time these “useless” Cpls were promoted (the 2 who have been Cpls for “years”) therefore in some respects partly the engineer of your own predicament. As a result you have something of an uphill task to get things to where you think they should be, as it would appear this wasn’t happening before and the change in you might be difficult for the Cpls to get used to. Also the fact the two Cpls you mention have been Cpls for “years” would indicate a rather large fail among the senior NCOs and to an extent the staff. I never had have many Cpls who I wouldn’t consider for promotion to Sgt. Those that don’t have largely done it to themselves by not being involved in things.

The only approach you can really take is we are all in this together and we all have to get involved and you need to be hands on and all things to all people, while getting on with your own life.

Tell the staff they need to speak to the two “long standing” Cpls as to why they haven’t been promoted, as I would imagine they are expecting it and their annoyance / disappointment is potentially contributing to some of the problems being experienced.

Do you have duty NCOs? If so be quite strident with what they need to do and if not speak to the CO about introducing them and the staff set the requirements. With these we have a duty cadet who will pick up on some of the things required for being an NCO, so on the job training if you like. The duty NCO oversees the general running of the parade; taking registers, getting info from staff wrt what’s going, general discip on the night and assigning other NCOs to do things etc and ever since I was a cadet they with the duty cadet run the canteen. Ours also form the squadron for final parade. This might not seem like much, but it starts to create the right mind set.
In general and I know some in the Corps frown upon it, but all Cpls take drill, if not before getting promoted, rather than dumping them in at the deep end. Initially this is under supervision and then a bit later on they start to instruct. I think they call this progressive training.

NCO meetings and the like aren’t worth the effort, I was an NCO for 5½ years and 1½ of those as a CWO the top dog and we never felt the need to have an NCO meeting outside a soujorn to a pub and offy prior to the sqn Christmas do (how the world has changed).

It is incredible that the staff seem from your comments have distanced themselves from the problem.

12

Hey Teflon, Thank you for your response :).
Yes, at the time the two cpls got promoted, I was promoted to sgt at the same time. This meant that we had 3 |Flt Sgts and 2/3 Sgts up until recently. Since then, we have had some leave, some age out and some leave for uni leaving just myself. Because of these Flt sgts, It caused a halt in promotions because it meant that there was no room, but we all worked well. The thing is, when we had a nice working NCO structure, the Snco’s were constantly looking for who to promote to what rank and would tell the staff… However, since we have had those leave, it has left a rather big gap that the staff are not whiling or struggling to fill despite my recommendations. They, like myself have not felt that anybody is ready to promote yet and feel that the rank will go to some peoples head (in a way). Luckily, the ‘old’ cpls are going on a course soon so hopefully this will help.

Secondly, yes we do have duty NCO. It does do some good. And yes, we do let Cpls (and potential Cpls) take drill and flights on parade. I feel like it boosts confidence and gets them use to calling drill commands and everything. Plus, it lets them ask questions surrounding it

We have NCO meetings, so it seems, just so the adult Flt Sgt can tell us/me where we are going wrong. We had one session on how to teach drill by numbers, which for the NCO’s was useful but for me was just embarrassing as I know how to do it. Other nights have literally involved how to teach SMEAC and just lectures. For me, it is boring and pointless as I do know these things but for the NCO (Cpls) it is useful. However, for some reason it takes up the entire night, leaving the cdts with no ranks. I may ask to sit out of the next one, or to shorten the session.

We also have a problem with the cpls being very close friends with the cdts Now I don’t mind this at all, because Cdts can be social, but its getting that separation between Cdt and Cpl that is needed. One of the ‘old’ cpls is very close friends to a chatty cdt and so does nothing when they are talking on parade etc, meaning I have to step in or raise the issue. So in that way the system is failing. However, this issue has slightly improved in recent months so its all good.

At the moment, the sqn is preparing for a change in command and who that will be the sqn does not know. So promotions may be at the back of their mind. But we have certainly noticed a drop in discipline which, I feel, will not be improved until the sqn has the correct structure. I don’t feel like they are distancing themselves from the problem but they are confused and stuck in the situation.

I know its a lot to take in and I hope it makes sense, but I really appreciate advice. I’ve already got some good ideas that I will try next parade night, but I feel this is a long term issue that can be made short term.

13

I used to be as you describe and not promote, until I had my second mass exodus of older/senior cadets, after which I now promote whoever we felt could do it, when we felt they were ready, this has in general worked for us. But it’s not your call to make. You may end up with a lot of NCOs compared to cadets, but they would be more ready for promotion, than to not have them in place.

While you are finding the lessons but boring, by you being in there as well the gives a sense of unity. I’ve forgotten how many ‘courses’ we have all done at work and in the Corps on a repeat and thinking I could be doing something much more interesting. But, you could by having a bit of experience detach yourself in the lesson and start thinking about / looking at things from a slightly different angle and do things differently. Heresy for those so beloved of tick list processes and you must only do it one way or the world will collapse. One of the aims of the Corps is to prepare you for future life … you have been prepared!! We’ve got an H&S session in a couple of weeks, which we have all done before and we’re already looking forward to the lunch.

What you describe as a meeting is the very antithesis of a good way of doing things, being told you’re crap and now get on with it, never ever works and unfortunately a lot of people in the Corps work like this as they think it’s how it should be done, as they do it like that in the military. I’ve been at things where you are berated and the last thing that you feel is motivated. If we do meetings at the sqn I make sure they aren’t on parade nights and there is food and with cadet ones, get pizza in. We get a nice discount from the place just down the road.

I would sooner have a ‘friendly squadron’, I have had too many spells where there are different ‘camps. It might be annoying but the opposite situation is far, far worse. This applies to cadets, cadet NCOs, staff, civ com, life is much, much easier if people get on and are more tolerant and understanding. They don’t have to be best mates. I’ve been known to tell people to reel they necks in, which makes me the spawn of satan.

The change of command looks like being a further step back, as I wouldn’t expect a new Sqn Cdr to promote anyone for at least 3-4 months.

14

[quote=“Teflon, post:13, topic:3527”]
You may end up with a lot of NCOs compared to cadets, but they would be more ready for promotion, than to not have them in place
[/quote] I totally agree with this. Its why it can sometimes be difficult. I value all of my cpls as they are the only ncos I have and I do have a good relationship with them. Don’t get me wrong, I feel like I can go to them for support and visa versa but sometimes, they are just standing around doing nothing when there is a lot to do (not taking the initiative). We are going to be talking about roles within the sqn tomorrow so should be good.

I do find them a bit repetitive but after 5 nearly 6 years in the Corps, ive learnt to stick through them. And I don’t necessarily want to be doing something more exciting, its more just making sure that the cadets are behaving and listening to the Ci’s (as we have a lot of parent/ child combos throughout the Ci’s and ranks) and just give them a hand if they are not. Ironically, the core values is something ive taught sooooo many times, but I also bring it in where I can and live by them. The amount of jobs etc I have got from mentioning cadets is amazing (so make the most out of it :wink: )

And with the meetings, its getting harder to plan off parade nights due to work, college, school and staff commitments but we find a way. We do usually do it on a parade night (we have one planned for the end of this month, just civvies and chill evening for everyone) which will be good fun. We all work really well as a team but when something goes wrong, it tends to come back on me even if I have aided, guided and shown them how to do it.

There is a possibility it will go to someone already in the sqn but again, like you said, it is a further set back.

15

Goes with the territory.

I was told something when I did my first what they now call performance management; if you do 10 things and only one of them is wrong, it’s only that they pick up on. It has run true my entire working life.

16

Sounds about right. But we can only remind ourselves of the 9 other things that we did well.
Despite all of this, I will go down tonight and get my head around a few things :).

Thank you so much!