State Honours Questions

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
1

Not sure which area this should sit, so Mods feel free to move.

I’m currently assisting a group of people put together the necessary information for an individual to be nominated for some form of State recognition.

I don’t wish to go into too much detail for obvious reasons, but, no - it’s not for me, but it is for an individual who has made a significant contribution to an area which can (and should) attract a State Honour.

The individual is also a long serving VR(T) Officer, but perhaps confusingly, the award is for a vast majority of non ACO related work, but their ACO work could contribute towards it. (Still with me?)

A point was raised by the group that the ACO could provide a reference to back up the nomination. This is true, but my concern is that I don’t want the nomination to be railroaded by the ACO into a Military List nomination, ‘vetted’ by those who don’t even know this person and subsequently get lost in the noise - ergo get nothing.

My thoughts are that the case stacks up via the Civil list (imo), so it’s perhaps pointless including the potential nause from the ACO. What are people’s thoughts on this? Am I being too cynical?

Secondly (not that it matters, but as a point of interest) - if the nominee receives an MBE, presumably it will come from the Civil list, irrespective that they are a Volunteer Reserve Officer, so therefore will be a non-Military MBE?

Don’t get me wrong, the individual would be happy with any award, in fact shy’s away from such things, but I am a firm believer that they should have the choice (if offered) to accept any award or not.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

2

[quote=“noah claypole” post=14457]The individual is also a long serving VR(T) Officer, but perhaps confusingly, the award is for a vast majority of non ACO related work, but their ACO work could contribute towards it. (Still with me?)

A point was raised by the group that the ACO could provide a reference to back up the nomination. This is true, but my concern is that I don’t want the nomination to be railroaded by the ACO into a Military List nomination, ‘vetted’ by those who don’t even know this person and subsequently get lost in the noise - ergo get nothing.

My thoughts are that the case stacks up via the Civil list (imo), so it’s perhaps pointless including the potential nause from the ACO. What are people’s thoughts on this? Am I being too cynical?

Secondly (not that it matters, but as a point of interest) - if the nominee receives an MBE, presumably it will come from the Civil list, irrespective that they are a Volunteer Reserve Officer, so therefore will be a non-Military MBE?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.[/quote]

This doesn’t happen any where near enough. We all know the good guys and girls who do stuff across a range of organisations but no one anywhere sees fit to nominate them, so well done to you and your group for doing so.

If the case holds up well enough without his VR(T) service, then just do it and simply mention that he does ACO work as well (if you feel you want or need to). I’m fairly sure that we have seen members of the ACO get civil division honours before. Having said that, his overall chances may be greater using the military route solely if you consider the numbers in the overall ‘field’. However, his VR(T) service alone may not stand up and the outside (outside of the ACO that is) activity might hold lesser weight in the military route. Moreover, as you say, you’ll have to convince the CoC and they may also have their own ‘favourites’ that they are pushing. I think both routes are a little tortuous though!

If the nomination is done through the Civil system, the likelihood is that he’ll be made a member of the civil division. I have heard of the awards people ‘throwing nominations over the wall’ to the military side if they think there’s too much said about their military work. Civil and Military membership is pretty much the same, it’s just the ribbon that’s different and if he gets made in the civil division, he can still wear the civil badge and ribbon on his uniform.

3

I’d say go via the civil route, but with everything supporting it in detail, including VRT Service. If they push over to the militray side then fine, it’ll have avoided the ACO “sift” which sees individuals receive letters/certificates instead of “real awards”

4

If it gets thrown over the wall to the military, it then starts the ‘sift’ process from the start again on the military side unfortunately and if there’s a mention of ACO work, it’ll go to HQAC. I was aware of one of these several years ago; uniformed staff member nominated through the ‘online’ system and it was then chucked to HQAC who sent it down the CoC to Wg for ‘comment’.

5

How about this route :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/5297966.stm

6

Judging by events over the years, it would appear that the VR(T) only get one MBE\OBE per year so that may be why the HQAC sift is so rigorous. I agree with Perry, I feel this worthy nominee would be better off going down the civil route with the nomination only making reference to his\her ACO work.

I know a Sqn Ldr in London Wg who recently received a civil MBE but (I believe) this was related to his youth work outside the VR(T). His nomination originated outside of the organization which of course, kept him out of the HQAC sift. Would it be possible, I wonder, for Noah to initiate his nomination as a member of the public as opposed to his position within the Corps?

Might there be a better chance of the nominee receiving a state award if this route was chosen? After all, there’s far more state awards available to the public than the one measly honour afforded to our organization.

7

If the ACO are rigorous in vetting nominations it may be because they have been bitten in the past.

exmpa

8

Credit for ACO service can be used in a Civil nomination - As per the LASER Sqn Ldr - That came via his employer I believe.

9

There is a difference between “rigerous” sifting and offering out “back of fag packet” awards (no offence to those who have them!) instead of proper state awards.

I do find it somewhat annoying that awards come out of the cornflake packet for people with (not poorly paid) jobs in the civil service etc, yet people who genuinely give up time for little or nothing receive lesser awards. Surely that can’t be right?

10

If there’s only one gong on offer per year, the sift is bound to be rigorous (despite the VRT Flt Lt who nominated himself in the past). I personally find it abhorrent (can of worms anyone?) that we lavish multiple honours upon the sports men and women of our country but constantly undervalue those who volunteer their time to help others.

When was the last time a lolly-pop lady was elevated to the peerage? On the other hand, someone cycles around France and wins a race and there’s a Knighthood waiting.

As you can see, I’m very anti sports personalities - who get paid mega-bucks in a lot of cases - getting honour after honour bestowed upon them and those in the background but who work just as hard and often over a longer period, often get the square-root of Jack Schiesse.

And breathe.

Still, with the re-introduction of the BEM, is it not time we nominated more and more CI’s for this state honour as well? We might just get more of those awarded than M\OBE’s.

11

And even though several hours later I still haven’t come back down to Earth ( :cheer: ), may I suggest that SNCO\WO’s are also eligible for the award of the MBE? It’s not the sole preserve of the VR(T).

Has anyone on here ever seen the award of an MBE to a SNCO\WO(ATC) in the honours lists? I can’t recall seeing any in my 11yrs with the ACO but I’m always happy to be proved wrong.

12

I know of two that have gone through the military route and got nothing. One of these people were submitted through the civvie route and got a gong, for, iirc, services to young people and the community.

I have a quiet chuckle of despair when the honours list come out and they are dominated by people who seems to get them for :-
just doing their job
getting a promotion (mainly senior military types)
achieving something sporty

I imagine Murray will get a knighthood for winning Wimbledon :ohmy:

13

[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=14459]
This doesn’t happen any where near enough. We all know the good guys and girls who do stuff across a range of organisations but no one anywhere sees fit to nominate them, so well done to you and your group for doing so…[/quote]

Thanks for saying so - It’s important to me that good people are recognised for doing above and beyond the norm. I’m certainly not a believer in the ‘everyone’s a winner’ culture that seems prevalent these days, but also not into the ‘get one over’ (I haven’t got it so you can’t) society either.

As an example and without giving anything away think along the ‘For services to the Arts’ route. The ACO stuff just adds credability to the individual imo, even though I would consider them well above the ACO average.

This is my concern - their ACO work addds to the ‘Big Society’ effect of the nomination, but I am keen that it isn’t thrown over the wall for the reasons cited above.

14

Judging by events over the years, it would appear that the VR(T) only get one MBE\OBE per year so that may be why the HQAC sift is so rigorous. I agree with Perry, I feel this worthy nominee would be better off going down the civil route with the nomination only making reference to his\her ACO work.

I know a Sqn Ldr in London Wg who recently received a civil MBE but (I believe) this was related to his youth work outside the VR(T). His nomination originated outside of the organization which of course, kept him out of the HQAC sift. Would it be possible, I wonder, for Noah to initiate his nomination as a member of the public as opposed to his position within the Corps?

Might there be a better chance of the nominee receiving a state award if this route was chosen? After all, there’s far more state awards available to the public than the one measly honour afforded to our organization.[/quote]

@Perry - totally agree - there seems to be no consistency with any of these awards with some worth people getting ‘Laminated Place Mats’ and other perhaps lesser candidates receiving a real award.

@anon72613902 - Agreed mate - I think it’s a case (sadly) of playing the odds, which means that the ACO bit looks as though it’ll take a back seat. I will certainly nominate the person as Joe Public and not VR(T).

15

[quote=“Gunner” post=14478]And even though several hours later I still haven’t come back down to Earth ( :cheer: ), may I suggest that SNCO\WO’s are also eligible for the award of the MBE? It’s not the sole preserve of the VR(T).

Has anyone on here ever seen the award of an MBE to a SNCO\WO(ATC) in the honours lists? I can’t recall seeing any in my 11yrs with the ACO but I’m always happy to be proved wrong.[/quote]

Agreed - although where (I think) they fall through the cracks is that you have a Military System nominating Civilian Awards and ergo gets put in the ‘too difficult’ tray…

Taking your point above reference CI’s - without going into the nuances of NCO service - I personally beleive CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.

16

[quote=“Gunner” post=14476]…As you can see, I’m very anti sports personalities - who get paid mega-bucks in a lot of cases - getting honour after honour bestowed upon them and those in the background but who work just as hard and often over a longer period, often get the square-root of Jack Schiesse.

Still, with the re-introduction of the BEM, is it not time we nominated more and more CI’s for this state honour as well? We might just get more of those awarded than M\OBE’s.[/quote]

[quote]…may I suggest that SNCO\WO’s are also eligible for the award of the MBE? It’s not the sole preserve of the VR(T).

Has anyone on here ever seen the award of an MBE to a SNCO\WO(ATC) in the honours lists? I can’t recall seeing any in my 11yrs with the ACO but I’m always happy to be proved wrong.[/quote]

Interesting points Gunner, and I agree entirely with your comments on sportsmen and women, oh and celebrities - political appointments meant to gain favour with the masses.

I think you’re right regarding SNCO/WO(ATC) appointed as MBEs, I’ve certainly never seen one on the military list either. That may well be due to the official standing of SNCO/WO(ATC) in that they are effectively CIs in uniform and therefore have no military status, hence why they won’t feature on the military list. I think there have been some civil appointments though.

Since it’s reintroduction, I’ve not actually seen anyone in the RAF awarded a BEM and they used to be commonplace for the junior ranks in the Service. Again, there may be an issue with the military list bit, but that still shouldn’t stop people nominating worthy people through the civil side.

[quote=“noah claypole”]I personally believe CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.[/quote]

This has been discussed many times on here in different threads and I agree that we are even worse at recognising the efforts of our CIs than we are at rewarding our uniformed staff. Now that civilians are eligible for campaign medals, the possible excuse of ‘we can’t give medals to civvies’ doesn’t really apply.

My money is on Lord Murray of Wimbledon. :slight_smile:

17

[quote=“noah claypole” post=14483]
I personally beleive CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.[/quote]

CI Long Service Certificate anybody?

18

[quote=“themajor” post=14485][quote=“noah claypole” post=14483]
I personally beleive CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.[/quote]

CI Long Service Certificate anybody?[/quote]

Well done - read my post again and ask the question why CI’s shouldn’t get a Medal vs their Uniformed Colleagues?

19

[quote=“Gunner” post=14478]
Has anyone on here ever seen the award of an MBE to a SNCO\WO(ATC) in the honours lists? I can’t recall seeing any in my 11yrs with the ACO but I’m always happy to be proved wrong.[/quote]

Is that because VRT are ‘military’ so get nominated for the military award through the military system, while SNCO aren’t?

Agree with you on sporty types.

[quote]themajor wrote:
noah claypole wrote:
I personally beleive CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.

CI Long Service Certificate anybody?
Well done - read my post again and ask the question why CI’s shouldn’t get a Medal vs their Uniformed Colleagues? [/quote]

I have wondered this… civil servants supporting ops in theatre get the OSM (as do certain contractors, I believe), so there’s a sort of precedent.

20

[quote=“noah claypole” post=14486][quote=“themajor” post=14485][quote=“noah claypole” post=14483]
I personally beleive CI’s service should be eligible for the CFM.

  1. There is very little other recognition for CI’s.
  2. The current system ‘suggests’ that time spent as a CI if you are eventually going to go Uniform is a ‘waste’, as none of it counts. It encourages people to get into uniform perhaps a bit sooner than they really ought to imo.
  3. If somebody is putting in the same time and effort as their Uniformed counterparts (which has a specified minimum number of hours) then I don’t see why not. I accept that those who perhaps only come in to deliver 1 subject infrequently would not qualify, but it would have to be on a case by case basis - something is better than nothing!

By recognising CI service it all counts and even ‘out and out’ CI’s will be recognised.[/quote]

CI Long Service Certificate anybody?[/quote]

Well done - read my post again and ask the question why CI’s shouldn’t get a Medal vs their Uniformed Colleagues?[/quote]

They have no uniform to wear it with. And its not a campaign medal that you would pass down to children etc. MBE etc is completely different.