Is that a reason to dismiss it? Why reinvent the wheel?
I certainly don’t recall any particular issues with the ranks held by those commanding squadrons in my day.
I’m basically talking about anyone who wants to be training/tea focussed rather than leadership/desk bound and stressing about all the admin and governance.
Why have people default to flying officer when they can default back to the ranks?
Flying officer could be for your adjutant/training officer etc (as it has probably become now, for those with a commission). Better yet, you could emphasise 2IC and 3IC by making your training officer a pilot officer.
The thing I’m suggesting be addressed is a system where you could have someone taking on the responsibility of a training officer/adjutant/sqn cdr but bizarrely not hold that commissioned rank because they happen to be a SNCO.
Give each role in your organisation a rank and then if someone is put in that role, give them the rank. If they’re double-hatting, they wear the higher rank.
If they drop down to being your lead trainer, make them a Flight Sergeant. If they become a warm body or generic trainer, sergeant.
WWO? Make that special and save it for wing or regional WOs (again, like the ACF I suppose).
It’s just weird that, when rank is the only (terrible) carrot/recognition you have, why continue a system where you don’t firmly attach ranks to posts and then freely give the rank if you’ve decided they’re good enough to hold the post?
i am not dismissing it - i am suggesting it works elsewhere and thus has precedent
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Sounds like a lot of extra admin.
It’s hard enough getting someone appointed in the first place, without having repeat the process multiple times.
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Beret badges and rank slides on standby in each unit’s store.
Appointment changes on your system, don the rank attached to it.
I’m hoping you don’t all change roles constantly, but if you’ve digitised stuff now, surely that’s simple?
Also, then allow RAFAC staff to wear berets regardless of rank in normal dress and you reduce the need for other kit, just a badge swap unless they want to buy a nicer version.
I am not sure the current rank structure is a problem. Cadets get to see a mix of Officers and SNCOs, similar to the RAF and thus understand how to address them appropriately when on station.
The biggest challenge that affects me is the number of people holding key positions within the Wing but doing very little, whilst a number of units are struggling to keep their doors open. This often comes down to the relevant OC Wing who decides their own ToR’s with their team rather than the CFAV themselves but it is frustrating to see especially when I can seen unit CFAV put far more hours into their unit then any Wing CFAV.
The ACF model is ok if you want everything to go to weekends and at Wing level but honestly I dont and I am absolutely certain neither do my cadets. They prefer activities being down at a local level by CFAV they know and trust.
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Good point! Back when all stall were CIs, WOs, or commissioned, air cadets had a nasty habit of calling all adults sir/ma’am. When I visited my old sqn as an ACF SI, I ended up getting called sir (as did an AFCO cpl) whereas ‘my’ ACF cadets checked ranks before addressing adult staff. This is something that improved after the introduction of CFAV SNCOs.
Yeah, can’t say I agree on this one. I still feel the default rank for CFC should be Flt Lt time served (as is in RAF). The old method of be in 8+ years and get your second stripe seems fair enough, you should’ve devised enough wisdom by then to be an effective OF2. If you leave a WSO post, back to Flt Lt you go. That’s feels to me a very different impression than back to Fg Off.
Having default OF1 makes an officer not in a OF2+ post seem like they must be a baby officer fresh from Cranwell last year, when they may have been in for decades. Whereas promoting directly to Sgt for SNCOs gives the complete opposite impression, implying years of experience when they could’ve got their appointment letter last Thursday.
I do think limiting FS/WO promotions is a good idea though to balance this, as SNCO cadre is quite top heavy. Not going to get into the campaign to introduce Cpl RAFAC, that’s been done to death.
I’d also disagree with the “fluid commission/non-commission” idea. Having someone go from Sqn Ldr Bloggs to Sgt Bloggs overnight would just be ridiculously confusing for cadets, plus it would likely cause a lot of confusion identifying CFAVs with common surnames, and just be a fairly useless pain.
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Fair point on flt lt time served.
Now they use cadet forces commissions, there’s absolutely no reason why anything above fg off should be acting.
You do your time for every single one of those ranks, so claiming you’re “acting” and only a substantive flying officer, even when a wing commander is silly.
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Why make change for the sake of change?
It wouldn’t be for the sake of it. It would be to provide purpose to ranks.
Because that’s how it works in the real world.
I’m sure cadets don’t just get ranks. They’re expected to demonstrate they’re suitable and then do stuff while holding it.
Why would you want a system that implies you just get rank for being around long enough? Especially not if it results in SNCO or senior officer ranks.
There’s a lot in this thread.
The idea of rank reflecting experience makes sense to me, but constantly moving between ranks less so.
We’ve never really kept true to the parent service rank system and can’t really. And we have anomalies such as APO.
I’d favour simplifying the training ranks, get rid of APO and Acting Sgt and have a PI rank (sure keep Ci as separate track if needed). Make WO and Flt Lt role based but let people keep it after a minimum period.
However - to increase flexibility allow people to be recruited into a rank role. Probably more relevant for officers but one of the issues is we follow the military model of recruiting at the bottom and growing our own. But say a trg off post could recruit a direct entrant, maybe as Flt Lt with promotion to Sqn Ldr after 6 months. The military is heading in that direction anyway for some roles.
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As far as I’m aware, DE at OF2, especially OF3+ is typically for subject matter experts, and is very much the exception not the rule. And said officers typically take roles more aligned to advisors/consultants (especially in SO posts) than a typical officer. I just don’t get how this translates to a RAFAC context, I’m not sure I’d want a Wg Trg Off that has never taught a lesson on a RAFAC Sqn and parachuted in off the back of a qualification.
Plus in our case they’d need to go through the typical boards + CIC process of course, there isn’t a ‘tarts and vicars’ course - as Bluestone 42 so eloquently put it - that they can be assigned to as a PQO/SME.
I’m just not sure this would really fit into the average wing structure, let alone a Sqn structure.
It would also really annoy the Fg Off’s if someone could walk in as a Sqn Ldr after 6 months…
Experience, up to OF2 in the officer cadre, should count for something.
If I was Commandant (god forbid for all our sakes) I’d introduce Cpl and have the adult NCO cadre start as AS1 or A/Cpl, making Cpl at CIC graduation. Time served to Sgt after 5 years, FS and beyond by competitive selection to rank-linked posts, with rank retention authorised after holding post for 5+ years.
For the officers, APO on same terms as present, Plt Off on CIC graduation, Fg Off and then Flt Lt being time served after 5 years for each rank. Sqn Ldr and above being competitive selection to rank linked posts, no rank retention authorised except in later life as a Retd rank. Fast track promotions as at present for candidates taking up OC or other high-level posts.
Id also scrap staff cadets and have this process start at 18. So our youngest non-fast track Flt Lt would be 28, and our youngest Sgt at 23. That might curry a shred more respect in the mess, and limit how many ridiculously young WOs we have.
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And MOD 90s?
Jumping up and down so drastically sounds horrid. And you mention about the impression that cadet ls may get from a “time served system”, what are they to make of the ex sqn ldr with 20 years who is now a sergeant, oh wait, he’s filling in as OC so now a Flt Lt, then hands over to a permanent replacement but takes FgOff to be Adj, then has to scale back again and become a sgt, life gets better and they can take up an SME role and is now FS…
Might as well be Steve, Jess, Akela, and Baloo…
You can add other caveats. As controversial as the SNCO Matrix may be in the eyes of some, it was always at least intended to prevent what you say. But why should someone with 20 years be looked at as no different to someone with 2?
The consequence of rank that no one is discussing at the moment is the effect it has on people that don’t know you. I use the same logic when considering cadet promotions: what expectations or prejudgement of knowledge, experience, and ability is someone who doesn’t know this cadet going to have and can they meet them?
If I’m looking at 2 flying officers who do I know to trust more? If one was a Flt Lt then I have a better gauge of their experience and judgement - especially if there’s a matrix and time attached!
Honestly, I’ve never been a fan of the accelerator that officers have available that NCOs don’t. And I don’t think you should jump up based on position. There should have to be something else required to earn it.
2 people can join at the same time and go different streams. After 4 years one is a Flt Lt with no SME quals and no camps or external activities under their belt because they were the only officer available to take the big chair. The other is being held at sgt despite being SAAI, FCI, AFA, and having delivered dozens of shooting, fieldcraft, and first aid courses, because they “hAvEn’T dOnE a BlUeS cAmP”.
There has to be some meaning to the system. The only meaning that Fg Off has is that you’ve done a minimum of 2 years - no wonder Sqn Ldrs don’t want to take that option. Even if it is just “the only officer available to take the big chair” at least there’s some amount of effort and responsibility required for Flt Lt.
A solely rank to role system is not only anomalous (almost half of RAF Officers are Flt Lt, with only 18% being below, ergo our fixation with a pyramid structure is a nonsense), but has a complete disregard for effort, dedication, skills, and experience, all of which are vital resources that we should automatically know how to access and assess.
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True but it’s likely to expand, both here and the US, to allow people to come in from industry and potentially move to and from industry over a career.
I can see benefits of having volunteers bringing their workplace experience in training, education, HR, media etc to play. Sure they’d need to do our policy stuff but frankly who cares if a Sqn Ldr MCO can do the about turn on the march?
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This makes a lot of sense.
Why wouldn’t we hold officers to the same standard? Been a wing commander for 5 years? Well done, you don’t drop down.
Lower entry than SNCO seems essential, and would level out the problem you reference.
You can’t really insist officers start at a made up rank of acting pilot officer (which isn’t a rank, because you hold the rank of pilot officer), but have your non-commission lot start in a rank that traditionally implies about a decade of experience.
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This.
Ditch the acting Sgt and acting Plt Off ranks, have a single uniformed PI entry route, even more sensible now we have one CiC.
You then apply for officer or SNCO.
I’m not quite sure how that part would work. I think all ACF now start as Sgt Instructor which suits their structure but ours less so. But by all
means set the expectation that officer is a commitment to command or take on an equivalent Wing role.
So:
PI — CiC — choose SNCO or officer - Plt Officer on initial appointment (no extra probation or APO) Fg Off as trg off or Adj and then OC as Flt Lt (or off to Wing but ideally all Wing applicants would have 2 years at least on Sqn as OC or OiC WO in my book)
But we have a lot of trg off who are SNCOs and Adj who are CIs, so the ToRs might need tweaking!
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You could totally use the junior ranks to confirm DBS clear and sqn cdr interview = appoint as AS2 and get them into uniform.
Basic training complete = AS1
Introductory course at Cranwell or whatever you do these days = cpl
Then you start focussing on what future roles you might want (if you want to take on more — not for everyone) = Sgt or plt off
But then this idea of having to choose a path so early is really silly when compared with other volunteer organisations.
It removes lots of flexibility and is forcing your volunteers to mentally commit so much more than they probably feel comfortable with so early.
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The only time I’d say I agree with this is where there is significant CI service backed up with good attendance on the registers. If you’ve been a CI for several years and hold external quals, DE at a higher grade is potentially okay. But DE off the street with no RAFAC experience would still be unsettling to me.
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