Well maybe the thing is when forced out try an industrial tribunal and call HMRC as a witness, what fun that would be for HQAC.
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Yes thatās a common mistake. But every little helps!
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A Permit 19 is required to allow vehicle operation without the PSV operators licence irrespective of Driver licence categories held.
B Cat licence can be used to operate vehicles with up to 16 passenger* seats / no more than 3.5T (4.25T if adapted for reduced mobility) / as long as the driver is over 21 and has been driving for 2 years - if a P19 is in place (as this effectively constitutes not for hire and reward).
D1 cat licnce can be use to operate vehicles with up to 16 passenger seats above the respective 3.5T/4.25T limits (e.g. Ford Transit 17 seat minibus).
In both cases a P19 is required. the confusion is over driver licence requirements and vehicle permit requirements which is obviously widespread - Iām glad I started this thread as it shows that there are a range of understandings across the Corps which I thought to be the case.
Hopefully policy - once disseminated (I made recommendations to WO MT on how best to do that as well) will clear things up.
Iād agree with post 1997 licence holder D1 entitlements as they would have had to undergo a separate Theory and practical test and medical in order to obtain it (which is on offer to us via Leconfield).
Iād disagree with pre 1997 licence holders that had a range of entitlements of which they might never of had experience in operating.
More than 16 passenger seats* Hence a 17 seat vehicle fits the definition as the drivers seat isnāt counted.
Seems the extent of the impact of any incoming change is being gauged.
Perhaps this misunderstanding is a result or our (HQAC) own misleading guidance?
I seem to remember an entry in AP1919 (it seems to have been removed from Sharepoint, so I canāt check my theory!), that states that the section 19 permit allows drivers to operate minibuses on a B cat licence, provided they:
- Are 21
- Have held a Licence for 2 years
- Are not driving for hire or reward
- Drive a vehicle with 15 passenger seats or less.
- Drive a vehicle with a MAM no more than 3.5 tons.
IIRC, there was nothing about operating all minibuses on a permit, just drivers who hold an ordinary car licenceā¦?
ACTO 150 has the RAFAC MT Policy
So it appears that this has been the case since this section was last amended - all minibuses need a permit 19. Iāve not previously read the policy, but relied on what I was being told as correct - luckily I donāt have a D1 so always had a Permit 19 anyway due to the incorrect belief that it allowed a B licence.
I would suggest the reason for no permit being required for MOD vehicles, is that no charge is made to the passengers and therefore itās not deemed as Hire/Reward or the MOD has an exemption.
Why do a minibus when up to 9 passengers can be driven by anyone, only if driven for H&R do you need anything different and as far as I can make out donāt need P19s. Or wouldnāt this matter to HQAC as all they would see is SOV and treat them all the same?
Do any squadrons have Torneos or similar that carry 8/9 passengers?
Like I said, Iām pretty certain that is what was stated in AP1919 - and to be honest, that was my understanding also, until fairly recently. Maybe that is why so many of us hold similar, but apparently incorrect, beliefs?
Interestingly, that is also what is alluded to on the 12/03/18 announcement on sharepoint:
Therefore, minibuses which do not have a Section 19 Permit, must only be driven by D1 qualified drivers.
So either the ACTO is incorrect, or HQAC is allowing minibuses to be driven illegallyā¦
I know of a few that have gone for Transit 50/50ās but only as a supplement to a Minibus not as a replacement for one.
I was looking at this yesterday as we have a tourneo. Itās a bit confusing but I think we donāt need one, according to the guidance letter issued by the DfT (futher up the thread).
Normally if operating up to 8 passengers under the p19 it says you must charge each passenger a separate fare which proves tricky for us. But I think that letter says we donāt need one.
I would not say that would be 100% correct cadets pay to go to campā¦
Many of therse points have been addressed with credible sources as reference and I think we are going round in circles now.
What we need now is a comprehensive and sensible policy statement drafted in concert with the DVLA and accurate in UK law.
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HQAC having to make a decision or policy statement in line with the law?
If there is a WO at HQAC starting to formulate policy, are they able to be a DDH as a WO?
The DDH is the RCs, CAC & OC2FTS
The WO at HQAC is the SME to advise them, in the same way the TSAs advise the RCs on Shooting/FT/AT
So will the RCs or the CAC go for the cautionary approach and stop squadrons owning SOVs or using private vehicles for transporting cadets or make it so onerous that the Squadrons will jst voluntarily stop going beyond the boundries of their location because of all the admin involved?
Look what has happened to flying/gliding as an example.
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I would suggest that the way things have gone in recent years, cautionary is an understatement, as soon as they get a sniff of creating admin for squadrons, thatās it all stops pulled out. Purely because they have no idea about what itās like on squadrons and have no experience of being a CFAV.
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A quick read of the government website shows that itās more about profit than charging.
Whether or not we charge cadets to travel, weāre not doing it as a business.
As far as I understand:
In your āprivate lifeā, you can drive a minibus (8-16 passenger) on a B license, subject to the āno hire or rewardā bit and some weight/seat limits.
To operate minibusses as an organisation, you need to license the organisation - either fully or with a permit 19.
The two do not necessarily contradict each other - you should legally be able to drive a minibus on a B licence and P19. A D1/D licensed driver will still need a P19 to carry cadets.
I think that the grey area comes in that you may charge for a P19 (indeed, if no money changes hands at all then one is not needed) whether that is a fare, or another type of charge (such as subs). The first would seem to preclude B category drivers, whereas the secondā¦
As is mentioned much higher up the page and is referenced in the P19 explanatory note, the question of charging is only around charging for the journey, as long as the journey isnāt the primary thing being provided then you are still ok.
So paying subs to be a member of the organisation doesnāt count (even though only members of the organisation get to go on the SOV) paying to go on camp doesnāt count. It even references other organisations, so Age Concern taking the old biddies to Bingo is covered under Permit 19, they may be paying for the trip but the thing provided is the Bingo, the journey is incidental to that.