It kind of depends on how you view the regulations. A section 19 permit allows you to provide a transport service for members of a not for profit group and allows you to charge to cover transport costs (but it can’t generate profit). If you do not charge for transport costs then you shouldn’t need a section 19 permit. We for example charge the same price for camp whether or not transport is provided or not. No money goes from the cadet towards the fuel or upkeep of the minibus, or paying any driver. It either pays for food or goes into the coy fund. Cadets only pay for transport really if there is a coach involved, whose operators will have a PSV or private hire license anyway. I don’t know if the MOD or RFCA have any kind of special license, but our vehicles don’t have section 19 permits.
None of this bothers me really as I can’t drive a minibus anyway.
It is quite confusing, but as far as I can tell the following stands:
The permit relates to the use of the minibus, not the licence requirements.
You can drive a minibus under a section 19 permit with a B, or D1 licence.
You can drive a minibus with a B*, or D1 Licence.
MOD minibuses (Including white fleet) are exempt from needing Section 19 Permits, PSV Licences, and drivers do not need a CPC, a Tacho, or to comply with drivers hours.
MOD whitefleet buses can not be driven by B Licence holders, as the majority have a MAM of over 3.5 tons.
The question seems to be whether or not we need to operate under a section 19 permit or not. The convo @big_g had with the DVLA would suggest that we do.
You do require a Permit 19 if you are driving anyone who is not deemed to be family or a friend.
So if you are driving say to a family wedding in a minibus then you can get one, or a group of friends to the golf not a problem.
as soon as you cross the line to people not deemed family or friends either a PSV or Permit 19. I wouldn’t like to go down the “the cadets are all friend of mine” route to go around this…
the MOD has some separate licence rules, remember there is a set age before your allowed to drive HGV’s but the MOD doesn’t need to comply with that either.
Which contradicts the .gov website (and everywhere else online including the Police National Legal Database) which all state that you can drive upto 16 Passnger Seats on a B as long as you meet the weight requirements. (Under 3.5 Tonnes or 4.25 if specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled people is fitted).
Perhaps, but the information is what the DVLA have told me,
I am sure people will have other points etc but All I am telling is the facts that I have been having to deal with for the last number of weeks
I would also point out it was because the police decided we could use our minibus with their understanding my problems started…
regarding the size etc, do you get 16 seater minibuses under 3500Kg?
However the minibus lite which is advertised in AirCadet Magazine comes with a wheel chair ramp and is under 4250kg, as such it still fits within the legislation and it’s a 16 seater. (With the facility to remove seats).
Everything you have been told fits exactly with what is online (and is what I’ve been saying all along) with the exception of the number of seats.
sorry, my bad I noticed and edited my mistake before you posted…
15 was the magic number they told me this morning but in all honestly
I was just so glad to receive the call that we were vindicated after going round the mill on this… maybe it was 15 passengers and not 15 seats…
the big thing though what i got them to repeat was the permit 19 requirements as soon as they said it was needed for a D1 too…
No moeny goes from cadets, what about ‘subs’ they go to the CWC who provide funds for insurance etc, therefore if only indirectly cadets pay towards the vehicle. Imagine a very smart barrister with that argument in court.
i was under the impression (having read it on gov.uk) that hire or reward includes paying for eligibilty to ride on the transport - which if provided for a group comes from group subscriptions.
ie your bus is used for Cadet duties - to be a passenger you must be a Cadet, to be a Cadet there is duty to pay subs - thus there is a “reward” (indirect to the organisation not individual)
The information I got was there is no agreement between the cadets and the minibus…
the squadron has it but there was no fixed contract/expectation that they pay subs and would be transported everywhere in the minibus to an activity.
If cadets fund raise to pay for it then that is expected and allowable but what isn’t, is for going to an activity cadet bloggs has to pay £4 more than cadet smith because cadet smith is not going in the minibus all cadet should pay the same…
These points sum so many arguments when it involves HQAC. They fiddle and interfere and don’t have a scooby (or give a monkey’s) what the fall out / consequences direct or indirect are or will be. One of the consequences is less staff. It’s fortunate that there are so many older people who have been willing to hang around, although they don’t automatically get a D1.
The danger is put too many things in the way and the human default is “you know what I won’t bother”, tell parents they need to comply with ATC rules to take their kids and some others in their private vehicle and you know exactly what they will say.
I know staff who no longer take cadets anywhere in their cars, because of the insurance stipulations, with the argument, which I think is valid, I only need the insurance for cadet activities therefore the ATC should pay it. I use my car for work so had business use for work, years before the ATC started to interfere. I only wish I got the same mileage for HTD that I do for work.
This shouldn’t be a grey area but is. We aren’t employees of the MOD or anyone relating to ATC things, but time and time again, we are treated like one in terms of being expected to fall in with things that for all the world would sit in an employees handbook.
I can’t help but wonder how this organisation got to it’s 10th anniversary, never mind its 75th and potentially 80th, given what we have done for years has been so dangerous. Would anyone form a new national youth organisation now?
