MT sections will not allow drivers to drive a vehicle they don’t have on their DVLA licence…
CFAV, Regular or reserve, without D1 a MT section won’t be signing out a Minibus to you as it won’t be on your FMT600 card as it isn’t on your pink DVLA card…
It does seem from all of this the obvious solution is each wing having say half a dozen minibuses, which are maintained and insured centrally and squadrons NEEDING them for a weekend or longer book it. You could also use them for Wing OofE, annual camps and the like. A charge could be made for fuel based on average consumption figures or do as for hire vehicles return it with the tank with the same amount of fuel as when you picked it up.
This then removes the need for squadrons having to pay for upkeep and keep records etc.
Wing have a list of “qualified” drivers and if you ain’t on the list tough.
I get that and I do have minibus on both my DVLA & FMT600 licenses but my question is - if I’m being paid to drive a minibus (in the course of my RAF duties), should that vehicle have a P19 as well, as has been suggested in this thread?
P19 is for not-for-profit schools and charities…
if acting as an Airman of the RAF you are not acting on behalf of a charity or school so a P19 would not be valid for the circumstances…
like the ACF system
my concern with this is availability.
For a Wing event many units will use SOVs to get teams there, be that a Athletics, Wing Training Day or other.
remove the SOVs and provide 12 Wing Minibuses and it becomes a bun fight who gets a bus.
there is also the inconvenience.
with an SOV (or Pheonix) the vehicle is on the doorstep (or can be delivered to be) while a “central pool” requires driving to WHQ to pick up, at times when WHQ is open to hand over keys. This is an hours round trip for me and for some would be almost an hour one way to complete the pickup - particularly frustrating if the event the bus is needed for is at/near WingHQ
it must work however as the ACF adopt the model, having been on a unit with an SOV and units without the convenience of having it just there, and being able to access the keys is significant for the volunteer
I have no idea about other ACF counties, but ours has taken to parking a number of MOD owned cars around the County and abandoning them there. Then, if they need to drop a bus off at a unit, they simply drive to the unit, drop it off, leave the keys on the desk, then use the MOD car to drive back to HQ. Works great for them at the moment… not convinced it’s the best use of tax payers money having all these cars parked across the county!!!
Or as they used to do, book a coach or coaches from a central point/s to pick everybody up. Used to happen with flying in my Wing.
Except if you’re an SI, you’re on duty…so you are paid…
What about squadrons like us with no SOV, we manage to get to the things mentioned. It can be a pita at times, but we get there, the only shame is that some staff who’d rather not, have to end up going, whereas with an SOV it would invariably be two people, with all the other staff “pulling a sickie”, on the basis of no room on the bus and there are enough staff going as it is.
Do the ACF have the various en masse events like we seem to revel in? If so how do they manage at Det level?
If HQAC do go down the route some are suggesting I can see many squadrons ditching SOVs, as the admin and costs become disproportionate. The only reason for having one I can ever see when people talk about their SOVs is the convenience angle.
That depends on the branch - RAF SIs are paid, the others there’s no guarantee of that.
And that was exactly the advice the DVLA gave me
Good point, well presented
Oh absolutely there are units without SOVs who get along well without an SOV…I am currently on such a Unit - dare say these are units without D1 staff too (we have only two D1 & FMT600 – I am one of those – both of us have come from other units where an SOV was on Squadron!).
my point being those with SOVs who have D1 staff and thus eligible to use the vehicles would be those looking at the Wing fleet however they would lose all the convenience by travelling to and from Wing. I am relatively close being 30 minutes away, but then it jumps to 45-60 minutes one way.
As far as I can see, there is no difference.
Edit - disregard - I subsequently read further down the page!
That letter was a supplement issued to the initial communication
Some operators were abusing the Permit system to undercut fully compliant commercial providers - I believe the DfT is investigating that particular issue.
Not sure if it was mentioned already but HQAC released updated info and have advised that for any Permit 19 held that was not issued by RAFAC an application via Accs F82 needs to be completed and sent in.
I think that there are squadrons though who have staff with the right licence who would see it as a benefit and I can’t see why there couldn’t be a mix of SOVs and central fleet. With the state of annual camps and other “special” camps, it would be more economic (with the drivers) to have a fleet of minibuses, than hire coaches, that spend hours going all over the place. Our annual camps for 4 of the last 5 years, have been in places that I would consider in distance terms as little more than a family day out, ie 2½-3 hours driving time.
I can’t see, if this mix approach was adopted, that anyone in the ATC could tell a squadron to get rid of SOVs, but you could see in time a line of thought of why have one and all the associated costs etc when vehicles are there for the cost of a tank of fuel. OK you might need to pick it up and drop it off but this is a pain with any hired vehicle and helps with the justification of doing so.
Speaking to those with SOVs the 3 biggest problems are security ie unless you have a compound where does it sit, sitting there doing nothing just eating money and staff to drive, it is difficult to get staff to want to do a D1 course, when it’s not something they will use everyday, even on a squadron with an SOV.
There single biggest reason for keeping one is convenience, but they say they vary rarely use it for more than car load, and do so purely to give it a run on parade night, as vehicles need to be used to prevent problems of no use. The only times it gets any more passengers are inter squadron sport events and large parades. But even then driving to the squadron and then having to drive home later can be a drag.
for the exact reason the central fleet hypothetical reason is being discussed.
HQAC make it so difficult and challenging to meet their expectations on running an SOV that we ditch the SOV idea and have a central fleet.
i don’t disagree there will be units who have qualified staff yet no minibus (I am on one such unit) who will see it as a benefit .
however it is a benefit to the Volunteer to have to drive 90 minutes (or more) round trip to use a vehicle they can currently have delivered to their door (Phoenix)?
As I tell the staff I take for Midas trg, be under no illusion that if or when your are stopped by the Police of DVSA and they check YOUR licence. the entity you are driving for will not stand by you. It is your licence and any omissions on your part is down to you to take the points and or fine. If you rely on driving for your living, that could have a massive impact on it. The Army have had issues interpreting the Law and where P19’s fit in (not sure of the outcome though). So for permit 19 conditions speak to the Traffic Commissioner, Road Traffic Act speak to the Police, for licence categories speak to DVSA, DVLA or the Police. Remember it is your licence not the RAF’s, RAFAC’s or your works.
Absolutely agree that people should check their personal circumstances. I’m more than happy with P19 and how we use it, but would always encourage people to check things like the weight of vehicles rather than taking someone’s word for it.