It can’t be given it’s not requested data on the Application for a standard or large bus permit you also wouldn’t then be able to use it on a hire vehicle…
thats a new form (May 18) they must of done away with the registration requirement as
it is completed on our permit
given this update coincides with HQAC pausing the issuing I wonder if there is an issue
This is my understanding as well - the vehicle must have a relevant permit displayed but as it is organisation specific it can be moved between vehicles.
The permits received we received form the Traffic commissioner have the Sqn’s name only. Use of permit in another squadron’s vehicle should be allowed as long as all other conditions are met as the vehicle is being supplied for the Sqn’s use. I tend to use Gov.Uk’s MOT + RFL Checker before borrowing another Sqn’s vehicle to ensure the minimum is in place - Insurance can be checked via askMID
Well that is really concerning for me…
We got ours via HQAC and it is clearly required to enter the registration number… so my worry is:
Is there different types of permits being issued and different requirements on the permit?
What actually constitutes a permit19 disc?
For those who wish to know about the Permit 19 scheme here are the FACTS as given to me by the DVLA this morning after our recent problems. Let me say my head is HURTING after this saga but we got a definitive answer from the DVLA legal side.
For driving a Minibus there are 2 basic categories of carriage
- Social (carrying friends and family)
- Commercial
We as a youth group come under section 2- Commercial
Comercial vehicle drivers should be PSV drivers HOWEVER the permit 19 wavers this requirement if it meets the criteria. the criteria revolves around Hire and Reward and payment to the driver.
I was questioned and the information I gave they made the conclusion that even as a uniformed officer receiving pay, I am NOT employed as a driver and the cadets are not paying special membership or paying money for use of the minibus that would constitute hire and reward. There for we meet the criteria for receiving a permit 19.
the answer they felt I would still receive the same pay (and rate of) there for it was not an issue of paid employment as a driver
So the Permit 19 scheme, as I said is there to waiver the PSV License to carry under commercial requirements. the DVLA guidance is as follows;
If you wish to drive a Minibus with 16 seats or more, the driver has to have a D1 license and the Vehicle a Permit 19
If you have a standard B1 license then you can drive a minibus 3500Kg or under and no more that 15 seats. Again a Permit 19 is required.
Please note that BOTH vehicles require a Permit 19, without it the driver should be a PSV Licensed driver.
That is the guidance we received today from the DVLA Legal team,
I also asked regarding my concern about registration etc on the permits, but they said they had been alterations over the years and we may just have different versions but as long as it was in date then there is no problem.
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I am inferring from this that even MOD/whitefleet/Calamity vehicles would require a P19 as the driver is likely to just hold a D1, not a PSV.
I would expect that in the same way the MOD self insure and therefore do not require to insure each vehicle, they are exempt from these rules, as they are from working time directive etc.
The exemption, would also remove the B1 exemption, hence the requirement for all to be D1…
But we all know about assumptions…
Just had this email? What do you think the game is? Our Minibus? Squadron Minibus ? where do think this is going?
Please can you let me know by return if you have a Squadron Mini Bus and if so how many. Please note it is most important that NIL RETUTRNS are reported. I have to gjve a 100 percent return across 3 wings to HQAC by Friday 22nd so please respond promptly stating which wing you belong t
Heard this was out there. Seems they have a WO at HQAC who is hot on MT procedures and had highlighted the DDH issues and where (and who) they sit…
I don’t believe that D1 allows you to drive a minibus for Hire/Reward, which means a Section 19 Permit is still required… While that has come from HQAC, I don’t think we would be legal.
The Section 19 Permit is not to allow a non D1 Driver to drive a minibus, but for a suitable qualified/experienced driver to drive for Hire/Reward without the need of a PCV.
More here in the Squadron Owned Vehicles thread
Next it will be private cars they will be getting twitchy over.
This is a downward spiral of micro management…
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Hasn’t HQAC already stipulated that you need business class 1 insurance to transport cadets, despite us not being employees…?
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My Bold.
The fact we claim expenses for travel - means that in the insurance world, we are are using the vehicle for business use instead of SD&P
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Agreed but that is not actually audited. It is the same with SOV, there is a policy but no audit. This latest panic is over audit of SOV.
Like so much with the senior management of the RAFAC there are many unknowns out in the wings, they do not have a clue how the RAFAC actually operates. Now that there is a DDHs out there and they are asking questions of what they are signing off and they are not liking it. It is understandable when you could go to jail for corporate manslaughter. I can see many commonly undertaken activities being admined out of existence.
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SOVs and transport in any form is going to go the way of flying/gliding.
If parents require any extension to their insurance which maybe costly, who is going to pay for it? the Squadron, the CWC or the parent? How is HQAC going to audit privately owned vehicles or are they going to put a stop to parents transporting cadets in any circumstances? One OC wing advocated recently when two squadrons co-located for that read eventual merger that parents could transport their child and friends.
is this fact??
The RBL have never asked me to prove insurance status before reimbursing me for travel i have made on RBL business…there has never been a reminder or policy released to my knowledge by the RBL restricting travel expenses (fuel for car travel) to those only with business insurance cover
It does not indicate explicitly a must have/not need for on anything on insurance but this document does show how to treat expenses for the volunteer
http://www.volunteernow.co.uk/fs/doc/publications/volunteers-and-expenses-information-sheet.pdf
looking further into Google i find this link Knowhownonprofit which offer this document link
For what it is worth, based on this document as I am currently with eSure insurance, they don’t need to be informed of my volunteer driving. be that with the ATC, RBL or other…
who is talking about us trying to control parents transporting their children?
If a parent wishes to or is asked to use their vehicle and we now have audits of SOVs the next logical step for DDH is to want to know about any vehicle transporting cadets in particular when for instance going to an event from a Squadron.
The point is not their children but other cadets as well.