Or get a Minibus lite or have a wheelchair ramp fitted.
But either way it’s wrong to say that you can’t drive a 17 seater (or more correctly a 16 seater) on a Permit 19.
We looked into a minibus lite and found they were completely useless, unless your passengers were all under 6 years old and very thin. There capacity for passengers/bags is incredibly low.
Edited to note - the payload for these “Lite” minibuses give around 7-8 stone per seat allowance. Fill that bus full of cadets and a couple of staff and legally the vehicles will be overweight.
@bigmac
Go for a 9 seater if your staff only have a B licence.
Yes and no - there are two types of Permit 19, one for vehicles up to 16 seats and one for more.
IImportant point here though:
The permit 19 is NOT to permit people without D1 to drive minibusses (not for hire/reward, etc). That is a basic entitlement that needs no permit.
The P19 is a requirement for any ORGANISATION (eg ATC Sqn) that wants to operate a bus for its members but isn’t (as an organisation) licensed to do so. A bus company (eg Stagecoach) will have something called a PSV licence (separate to the need for its drivers to be qualified); the Permit 19 is in place of that.
Therefore ALL Sqn minibusses need a P19 whether being driven by people with full D1 (whether directly qualified or grandfather rights) or not.
Here endeth the sermon.
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Just for clarification, it is a PSV Operators licence not a PCV Licence, but everything else MattB said is 100% correct.
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Depends what version you are looking at, the 17 seat with removeable seats and folding wheelchair ramp gives you and extra 3/4 of a tonne.
Well spotted, now corrected.
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Yes as they are allowed to be up to 4.25 tonnes if including any specialist equipment to carry disabled passengers.
But this is where you get into dodgy ground. Is a flimsy removable wheelchair ramp really enough to class the vehicle as adapted for wheelchairs to allow a B licence holder to drive it?
One copper having a bad day and you end up as that test case in crown court with the people in wigs.
They are great for D1 holders though, as they give us a poo tonne of payload capacity compared to a 17 seater transit.
The manufacturer has taken legal advice and they are being used so widely (every school and most Squadrons within my county have gone down that route) it’s not something that I would worry about.
This is the information I got last year DIRECT from the DVLA. I hope it helps.
I’m not convinced that it’s 100% correct though - as Daws said above, there doesn’t appear to be a restriction on the number of seats that a B driver can have; although the weight limit may well cause this in practice and it’s important to note that there are two categories of P19 - those for 16 or fewer seats and those for 17 and greater (and the 17+ is NOT transferrable to a smaller vehicle).
Does anyone have a link to the actual law that defines the entitlement? As the government’s own guidance seems to vary on the seats question.
Wow!!! the DVLA/ Gov website has changed a lot since last year…
Reading it you are correct the fixed limitation on seating has been removed
My recommendation is to just call the DVLA and discuss direct. Either way though you will need a permit 19 for the minibus
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That extra weight limit however only applies to the equipment; the remaining laden weight of the bus must still not exceed 3.5 tonnes.
You couldn’t for example fit a wheelchair lift weighing only 100kg as a means of magically allowing you to carry 4.15 tonnes instead of 3.5 (as I believe is basically being suggested by Daws).
(4)This subsection applies to any small bus which, when laden with the heaviest load which it is constructed to carry, weighs—
(a)not more than 3.5 tonnes, excluding any part of that weight which is attributable to specialised equipment intended for the carriage of disabled passengers, and
(b)not more than 4.25 tonnes otherwise.
Not sure that’s the right bit - I was talking about the 21, driving for 2 years, etc law.
Be very careful using legislation.gov.uk as a reference. It can take years for them to update when amendments are made.
Oh, I see…
In which case you want…
The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999
Section 7(6):
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That’s the badger.
So no limit on seats there, but possibly with regards to Permit 19 (looks questionable whether you can drive a large bus without a proper D1 on a P19)
Aye, whilst one could certainly get a section 19 permit for a “large bus” i.e. more than 16 passenger seats (thus not requiring a PCV operators licence), the personal licence exemption under section 18 would not apply (as it only relates to a “small bus” upto 16 passenger seats) and the driver would require a D category on his licence (D1 being minibus only).
Indeed, even though you could drive a 25-seater, <3.5T bus (if such a thing existed) as a private citizen.