Squadron Owned Vehicle - Minibus - Tips?

Adult Staff Execs
21

We’ve got a 9 seat ford tourneo & 17 seat ford transit. The 9 seat tourneo is definitely Permit 19able. The 17 seater isn’t due to weights.

One of the best compromises would be the 12 seat ford transit which is built on the 15 seat chassis, but with a back row of seats removed leaving space for a cage/luggage. They are, however, rare as rocking horse poop, and not available through FordDirect and the MOD discount scheme. It is, however, well within Permit 19 weights - even when full of cadets. Whereas the 15 seater will but you over.

The Citreons aren’t too bad. And the Renaults are OK. I’d not bother with LDVs. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about the configurations options they present.

22

[quote=“Batfink” post=3377]We’ve got a 9 seat ford tourneo & 17 seat ford transit. The 9 seat tourneo is definitely Permit 19able. The 17 seater isn’t due to weights.

One of the best compromises would be the 12 seat ford transit which is built on the 15 seat chassis, but with a back row of seats removed leaving space for a cage/luggage. They are, however, rare as rocking horse poop, and not available through FordDirect and the MOD discount scheme. It is, however, well within Permit 19 weights - even when full of cadets. Whereas the 15 seater will but you over.

The Citreons aren’t too bad. And the Renaults are OK. I’d not bother with LDVs. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about the configurations options they present.[/quote]

Interesting that you say the 15 seater will be over weight when full of cadets. Is that definitely correct? The wing minibus is a 15 seater transit, so I was basing my search around that model. I’ll try and find the exact model number so I can do some research.

Wouldn’t it just be possible to buy a 15 seater and remove the rear seats?

23

Our local ACF were pulled by the Traffic Fuzz last year and escorted to a weighbridge. When their 15 seat Tranny was filled with 15 bums on seats it weighed in over the 3500kg limit. Driver got a fine. A letter from the TopCop landed on the OC ACFs desk reminding him to pay attention to the Law and stop risking the safety of his cadets. A memo shortly followed to all ACF types (which some how I stumbled across!) suggesting that they only put 12 cadets in their 15 seater fleet to give them some wiggle room within the Permit 19 regs.

Removing of the rear seats would certainly cure the issue - but ensure it’s done properly and you let the insurance fellows know.

24

How full the bus is is irrelevant for Permit 19 - it is the MAM stamped on the plate that counts. If that number is over 3500kg you can’t drive it.

However, if you do then drive a bus with a MAM < 3500kg but load the bus with bodies and luggage and it exceeds the Maximum Authorised Mass of the vehicle (i.e. when weighed is over 3500kg), it is indeed illegal.

A full complement of passengers adds about 1000kg to the bus weight (ish) so you need to consider the unladen weight of the bus as well. Some buses can be re-plated, reducing the MAM (and consequently making it legal for Permit 19) - however this reduces the overall carrying capacity as the re-plating doesn’t change the unladen weight.

25

[quote=“redowling” post=3383]How full the bus is is irrelevant for Permit 19 - it is the MAM stamped on the plate that counts. If that number is over 3500kg you can’t drive it.

However, if you do then drive a bus with a MAM < 3500kg but load the bus with bodies and luggage and it exceeds the Maximum Authorised Mass of the vehicle (i.e. when weighed is over 3500kg), it is indeed illegal.[/quote]

You’re right on this.

Although I don’t doubt Batfink’s story, I do find it odd that a vehicle could have a GVM/MAM of 3500Kg but would then exceed this weight if it was carrying it’s intended load. Do you know if they were carrying a lot of kit?

26

[quote=“redowling” post=3383]How full the bus is is irrelevant for Permit 19 - it is the MAM stamped on the plate that counts. If that number is over 3500kg you can’t drive it.

However, if you do then drive a bus with a MAM < 3500kg but load the bus with bodies and luggage and it exceeds the Maximum Authorised Mass of the vehicle (i.e. when weighed is over 3500kg), it is indeed illegal.[/quote]
It’s the latter where the issue arose. The minibuses were all bought plated when Ford did a run of sub-3500kg 15 seaters…

27

Nope. Just average sized cadets with daysacks under the seats.

28

[quote=“Batfink” post=3386][quote=“redowling” post=3383]How full the bus is is irrelevant for Permit 19 - it is the MAM stamped on the plate that counts. If that number is over 3500kg you can’t drive it.

However, if you do then drive a bus with a MAM < 3500kg but load the bus with bodies and luggage and it exceeds the Maximum Authorised Mass of the vehicle (i.e. when weighed is over 3500kg), it is indeed illegal.[/quote]
It’s the latter where the issue arose. The minibuses were all bought plated when Ford did a run of sub-3500kg 15 seaters…[/quote]

Yup, so Ford just stuck a plate with a MAM of 3500kg onto the buses, but didn’t change their overall weight. So the bus unladen probably weighed around 2800kg. Stick a ton of cadet on the bus and game over - driving illegally.

29

Having now done the maths, 1000Kg payload is not a lot on a 15 seater. There would have to be an average passenger weight of 66.6 Kg not including kit. If it was full of adults the limit would smashed.

I dread to think how many ACO staff are unknowingly breaking the law.

Could somebody recommend a better 15 seater minibus. Where a fully loaded bus won’t make it illegal.

30

What Redowling says.

Did a bit of reseach myself on this (funnily enough following discussion on here) and it frankly gave me a headache.

31

If you look at the current Ford people movers brochure, their current 3500kg 14 passenger minibus has a kerb (unladen) weight of 2444kg. The 3700kg plated version has the same kerb weight.

So you can have between 1056 (average of 70.4kg) and 1256kg of payload (average of 83kg per person on board).

I’d be suprised if you found minibuses from any manufacturer which differed greatly from this. Moral of the story? Get a D1 licence.

32

True.

Or get a 9 seater.

33

Also true!

34

That would only give me an extra 4.9Kg per passenger with the bus I have at the moment. A 9 seater would provide 109Kg per passenger.

Although it would be personally great to have, a D1 wouldn’t make much difference in this case. I also wanted to think long term for the Sqn. Not all staff can get a D1, some that do will leave. Leaving the Sqn back at square one.

35

You don’t need a permit 19 for a Tourneo! It’s driven on a car licence, because it has 8 passengers!

36

Yes you do. Any SOV needs a Permit 19 as it is the permit which exempts you from holding a PSV operators license.

The section 19 regulations are not solely about driving a minibus on a car license.

37

Might want to speak to the Insurers as its them who insist we have it!

38

[quote=“redowling” post=3412]Yes you do. Any SOV needs a Permit 19 as it is the permit which exempts you from holding a PSV operators license.[/quote]Sorry - that sounds like somebody has been talking out of their hole. You don’t need a PSV licence as you are not driving for Hire or Reward, even if you are uniformed staff and in receipt of pay.

39

a Tourneo cannot be classed as a minibus as it does not carry enough passengers thus is classed as a car and therefor would not need a P19

a taxi driver doesnt need a PSV licence for example.

more than 9 passengers and it is classed as a minibus and thus a PSV is required - or how i understand it…?

40

Apologies, I thought the Tourneo had 9 passenger seats… in which case it would class as a minibus. If it only has 8 passenger seats then I don’t think it should require a Section 19 Permit. The need for a Section 19 permit is stated in ACAI 411:

Therefore if you have an SOV with 9-16 passenger seats you need a Section 19 Permit.