Just wondering what the guidelines are for sqns purchasing their own ammunition for use in NSW.
Having had all sorts of problems trying to get hold of .22 ammunition from my parent station, I’ve recently been denied permission to purchase on an ACF20,firstly as I seemingly asked for too much (1000 rds) then when I offered to reduce it, still refused my WShO says that he will not let me “take the easy option” to get us shooting.
This has stunned me as I wasn’t aware that this sort of thing was actually designed to be difficult…
Is it within his remit to stop my sqn spending funds on something that the cadets really want to do, or am I in the wrong?
Word or warning though, most dealers will not recognize an ACF20 as they are use to Firearms Certificates. Attempting to do so tends to result in panicked calls to licensing units, lots of confusion all round and having to go back a second day, so if you are doing this ring the dealer in advance and possibly the licensing department for good measure. Also under the firearms act the ACF20 can only be used by ‘a person in the service of Her Majesty’ - so this means VR(T) only.
But good news under ACP 26, the ammunition can be transported under civilian rules and regulations ( yay ) but at no cost to the MOD, so you cannot claim milage (Boo )
Also, the section of the firearms act quoted on the ACF20 is the wrong, quoting section 54(5)(b) when it should be 54(1)(a).
This technically means that the ACF20 is unlawful and any body who signs one could be lining themselves up for trouble.
With this minefield I can understand why your WShO should decline to sign it (although according to ACP26, it should be OCW how authorises it)
I suspect the first is not possible; you still need an authorised ACF20 to give the Sqn authority to hold the ammunition - I suspect the first route wouldn’t hold up under audit.
As for the second one, I’m not sure - do the club have a Registered Firearms Dealer licence to be able to sell ammunition? Do they need one? In my opinion I’d stay squeaky clean by getting that signed ACF20 and buying from an RFD.
We’ve had none of the problems buying NSWs on ACF20s that CT suggests. If they do, just tell them to check the law! Also, doesn’t the firearms act specifically cover any of the cadet forces (not just VR(T)), as that is what allows cadets to use Section 5 items and have them in their possession?
Something to consider, which may be why it was refused, is that you can’t use privately purchased ammunition with Service Rifles (don’t have a reference to hand, however it is to do with the safe system of training).
So if you don’t hold NSWs that may be the reason it was refused. If you do hold NSWs though, I can’t see why it would be refused.
Thanks for the replies above. I’ll check the RFD status of the club, but in the past my local RFD has been ok with servicing our NSW on the ACF20. (I suppose that answers ibbi’s post. Yes we do have NSW, And I am aware that we aren’t allowed to use privately purchased ammunition in service rifles. I’m not fussed about that, I just want to get my cadets shooting.
[quote]Thanks for the replies above. I’ll check the RFD status of the club, but in the past my local RFD has been ok with servicing our NSW on the ACF20. (I suppose that answers ibbi’s post. Yes we do have NSW, And I am aware that we aren’t allowed to use privately purchased ammunition in service rifles. I’m not fussed about that, I just want to get my cadets shooting.
[/quote]
It is highly unlikely that your club has a RFD, they probably hold their firearms on a free club FAC, provided under the terms of their HO Approval. As long as they are not acting on a commercial basis and only selling to their members and visitors they do not require a RFD certificate.
To deal with your options:
Purchase on your own FAC. This is very tacky, your FAC and the ammunition allocation is for your personal use iaw the details you supplied when you applied for it. OK for 500-1000 rounds on a one off but not really in the spirit of things.
Purchase from the club. Slightly less tacky but stretching things nonetheless. Clubs frequently supply ammunition to other clubs but usually on a one-off-basis. To make it the standard method of acquiring ammunition might raise a few eyebrows in the FLD.
Purchase through RFD. Your best option and totally legal, provided that you have the paperwork.
Why not give the NSRA a ring and ask their advice?
Ali Aitken Range Construction/Inspection 01483 485539
Phil Martin Shooting Manager 01483 485508
I have some documentation dated back several years relating to the use of SERVICE ammunition in NSWs.
It came about as a request from ACO (HQAC_Logs 2 dated 25 May 05) for the Defence Ordnance Safety Group (DOSG) to provide Manned Firing Advice for the use of service issue ammunition in privately acquired target rifels by UK service personnel & cadets on UK ranges.
They provided a DOSG Safety Advice document (021/005/04/003 dated 15 Jul 05, “WS-1 TARGET RIFLE 01”) which basically said as long as certain caveats were followed, there were no issues. Extracting the details for .22" it said:
[li]The individual firing the weapon must be trained & competent to safely use the weapon within the constraints of the WDA[/li]
[li]An inspection regime should be implemented for privately acquired target rifles by the …cadet unit…(References specified)[/li]
[li]Individuals holding privately acquired target rifles should demonstrate that the rifle has been serviced & checked by a suitably qualified individual before using issued service ammunition. A record should be kept to record compliance by the relevant …cadet unit.[/li]
Now, I am aware that this is the reverse of the stated problem (using “civilian” ammunition in NSWs) but as one of the caveats mentions training & competence, perhaps someone needs to approach DOSG for a similar Safety Advice Document?
[quote=“redowling” post=13404]I suspect the first is not possible; you still need an authorised ACF20 to give the Sqn authority to hold the ammunition - I suspect the first route wouldn’t hold up under audit.
As for the second one, I’m not sure - do the club have a Registered Firearms Dealer licence to be able to sell ammunition? Do they need one? In my opinion I’d stay squeaky clean by getting that signed ACF20 and buying from an RFD.[/quote]
As long as it is not by way of trade or business then this isn’t a problem and the club can sell you the ammo in pretty much the same way every club does across the country. So if its a couple of one offs - not a problem but a regular sale which the club makes a profit on could cause things to get tricky.
The RFD has to satisfy themselves that you are lawfully entitled to purchase so they can decline if not sure. You can ask them to check but they are within their right to refuse. (it has also happened when different FLD have printed certificates one the wrong colour paper to save cost). depends on the licensing area and how much of a pedant the dealer is.
The arms forces act does allow civilians to be in possession of Section 5 firearms when supervised by a member of the regular or reserves when on service premises. Also note the emphasis on Target Shooting in 54(5)(b)ii - if you are an SNCO or WO wanting to do arms drill with live L98A2 then you need to be supervised by an Officer or Service Helper (airsoft weapons are fine, L103s you could probably argue are replicas. Service premises includes the Sqn building, just don’t do it near a road!).
In theory, you could use an ACF20 to by a Section 5 but I doubt anyone would let you. However if you have no joy, under Section 11(4) of the act there is this little beauty : -
Might make your shooting officer breath a bit easier if he is concerned about legality. The main restriction on non-service ammo is that it has to be CIP and cannot be homeloaded/reloaded ammunition. Anyone ever used this section?
[quote]In theory, you could use an ACF20 to by a Section 5 but I doubt anyone would let you. However if you have no joy, under Section 11(4) of the act there is this little beauty : -
Might make your shooting officer breath a bit easier if he is concerned about legality. The main restriction on non-service ammo is that it has to be CIP and cannot be homeloaded/reloaded ammunition. Anyone ever used this section? [/quote]
Many (most) rifle clubs used to operate under Section 11(4) but with the introduction of the Home Office Approval scheme in the wake of Hungerford its application has effectively become obsolete. The NSRA will issue a S11(4) Exemption Certificate on request to affiliated clubs and I believe that the Showmen’s Guild will also provide one for their members. In fact neither certificate has any legal standing and only serves to explain the law. A RFD may agree to supply ammunition under the terms of S11(4) but is unlikely to do so unless the already know the purchaser and their circumstances or without first of all establishing their bona fides. The latter will probably include an enquiry to the FLD who; in the case of cadet forces; will point out that an appropriate procedure and certificate exists. That being the case you may have to explain why you are not in possession of an ACF20.
) but at no cost to the MOD, so you cannot claim milage (Boo 
)