So long and thanks for all the fish!

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
22

Regarding the time / administration of an AED - the training we’ve been provided via AFA etc, shows that getting an AED as quickly as possible is key…

I thought it was 10% per minute - but… the point I was trying to get to was that I was being told that irrelevant of how far the nearest likely device was - we should be sending a CFAV - or even a passerby to go get…

Sitting in a calm office, such a suggestion probably sounds reasonable… but I asked at what point would a device be considered too far away…?

Or under what circumstances might one decide - it’s not a good idea…

In my mind, I was trying to balance up the decision on sending someone possibly on a dangerous journey… removing a first aid trained CFAV from the situation…

Imagine the situation - team of cadets and staff out on a road. Casualty collapses… after establishing that stuff is hitting the fan, 999 is called… the operator will tell you IF you are close to a WORKING & AVAILABLE device - give you its location and the code for access…

But - you need to factor in the high likelihood that everyone - staff included are likely to be panicking…

In the rush to complete training in scheduled time - it is rare that trainees attempt - or manage to complete a sustained bout of CPR for more than 5 minutes, let alone 8-10 minutes…

I asked where the balance was in terms of keeping, competent / trained adults close by to assist with CPR and manage distressed cadets…

But yet again, all I could get was a garbled half hearted, suggestion that a dynamic risk assessment etc should be called upon… FML! as if that wouldn’t happen at the time - but my anger was at the insistence that someone MUST…

Having spoken to other senior staff within my Wing and Region - plus other Wings and Regions - the matter of AEDs is open to interpretation - if they’re not available, how will you mitigate the risk…. i.e. I have X staff, a support vehicle and am close to a hospital etc…

Hence, it appears that the insistence of implementing AEDs into our plans is more localised…

I know that I have probably ruffled lots of feathers by calling into question lots of decisions and orders - but, all I was after was a reasoned discussion - rather than knee jerk reaction…

23

The answer you get will be very enlightening! I think it’s a brilliant idea, but as with all brilliant ideas - they need properly thinking about HOW they’re going to be implemented.

I’ve heard this evening that this MAY have been kicked off by our Regional Commandant - in response to a serious incident at a camp this year.

24

As devil’s advocate - I believe the whole can of worms that is AED provision was kicked off by a cadet (with a cardiac condition - whether known or unknown) who collapsed with a reported cardiac event, during a “March”…

Frankly - I’d put more money on the notion that it would be a member of staff in need of an AED, based on lifestyle factors as opposed a young(er) fit(ter) cadet…!

25

I would be the very first person to say that I would have been a very poor choice for the role of WRMO, given my family circumstances.

It was however rather ironic to see that the person appointed to the role, was in fact planning to do even less - but was quite happy to criticise what I WAS doing…

26

It is broadly so, although it depends a bit on the cause/“path” (if you will) of the arrest. High quality CPR will stretch the time frame a bit too.

Just for a point of reference, I responded recently as a volunteer to an arrest where the nearest ambulance had a 15 minute running time. I’m on the edge of a decent sized city with 6 ambulance stations within 30 minutes of me and an ED <15mins at normal road speed. Sometimes there just is that kind of delay (especially once you get out in the sticks), and ultimately getting an AED there in the interim - especially with good CPR ongoing - could still make a difference and is definitely giving someone the best possible chance.

On a side note, I’d also recommend downloading the GoodSAM apps - Alerter and responder (if you wish to provide CPR for others around you). You can sign up to the Alerter as joe public and it will show you where nearby AEDs are and alert nearby responders if you do happen to find a cardiac arrest.
You’d need to provide evidence of a first aid qualification covering BLS (which everyone should have) for Responder, but it would then allow you to be alerted to cardiac arrests within a certain distance of you (usually 500m-1km depending on the ambulance trust) which you can choose to go and start CPR if you wish.

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27

Taking time out won’t mean coming back to “better Air Cadet” world, probably worse as there will be the same resentment, disenchantment and frustration that caused you to leave, before you start. Ask why many who have done a spell NEP either come back for a little while or don’t bother? Many male staff use NEP as an excuse to leave, just like some women use having children. Let’s face the fact that we have all had time off recently and as we have come back, nothing has changed to make our volunteering any easier, combined with for many their personal circumstances may have changed and their day to day lives are more of a challenge, for example uncertain employment.
We get people coming into this organisation at the salaried levels and find that there isn’t really anything wrong, so doesn’t need much input. If you are getting paid a healthy wedge, it’s no good just saying there’s nothing that needs doing, so they invent things to justify their jobs, except these things put more pressure on the volunteers at sqn level, the place where the pressure needs to be removed the most.

Things like AEDs never existed but are now something people get excited about. I’ve done the training which has been 30 minutes each time I won’t get back, bearing in mind, the bloody thing tells you when, how and what to do, as it’s designed for people with no training. Do we need to know where the nearest one is or carry one everywhere we go? On latter only if HQAC supply a couple to each sqn and they (RFCA) do all the maintenance checks etc.

As for aerial photos another convenience of the modern online mapping sites. I have used aerial and street view for as long as it has existed to give me an idea what somewhere looks like and always bung in a postcode to give an approx. journey time and rough route. They haven’t started asking for this yet but it can only be a matter of time.
I have included aerial mapping with cadets doing mapwork training and when planning expeds etc, as OS maps don’t show many of the things you find on a cross-country route, like hedges. On one occasion the aerial view showed a housing estate being built where according to the map which was the most current, showed only “fields” with a couple of footpaths meandering across, so the route which we had used for several years was changed. When we got there the housing estate was complete and lived in.

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28

I agree on the GoodSam app. It’s really good in that if an alert comes through and you accept it you end up in a video call with the person setting the alert so you can start to get information on your way over.

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29

Never noticed the video call, but I’ve only been alerted by my local trusts rather than someone on scene - that might be it I guess

30

We had that incident circulated recently for info in our Region.

From the information given it happened while a group of cadets were marching to breakfast while on camp. Cadet collapsed with a previously undiagnosed heart condition. Camp Coms good knowledge of the base meant they were able access an AED quickly.

32

It’s not going to be long before we will have to have a first aid kit, defib and stretcher to immediate hand, at every activity. Even if going bowling or playing footie in the park… sorry I mean EUF…

It’s no wonder we are incapable of delivering anything. Let alone aviation!

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33

The flight plan needs to show the location of every AED you fly over and the nearest suitable field/road for landing

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34

We need to remind people that we are trying to manage risk here like anything else. The likelihood of a cardiac event in the cadet age group is very rare - a quick google suggests 12 people per week under the age of 35 in the UK.

That’s 624 people in around 24.4 million in that age band; a very, very small percentage (0.002% - we could expect one cardiac event in the 0-35 age every 50,000 events we run). Requiring AEDs & planning locations for every activity is an unnecessary effort in many cases.

Is it a good idea to have an AED on a large camp with you, or with you at an event if you have access to one? Of course it is, if they are available and/or you have large numbers gathering then it’s not an unreasonable thing to chuck one in the van. Beyond that we are managing infinitesimally small risks and the effort is disproportionate to the risk.

Unfortunately many people fail to engage their brain before putting silly mandates in place.

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35

Amen to that.

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36

A better way of managing that risk would be to say no staff member aged over 35 are allowed more than 500m away from an AED at a any event :rofl:

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37

Don’t give them ideas

38

Yes, but that would force all the old crusties away from me so it has my vote :wink:

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39

Suits me. I suggest locating the AED in the refreshments tent. Preferably one with G&Ts on hand.

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40

In that case I don’t mind being classed as an old crusty

41

In all seriousness (and to bring back on topic), I shudder at the OP on this and at the same time nod my head in agreement. I am teetering on the point of saying the same, partly because of the admin burden (and partly because of the fact the way my Wing CoC acts makes me feel really unwanted - but that’s another story).

Without giving too much away about my non-cadet life, I am relatively senior in an organisation doing things not dissimilar to what the cadets do, and we run the whole process with far, far less faff than the cadets do. That is not to say we don’t have admin - we do, and quite a lot of it, and staff complain about that, but at nearly all levels, that admin is proportionate, appropriate and (mostly) sensible.

My portion of that is more than enough to be honest. And I don’t really want to be snowed under even more paperwork and admin when I do something outside of my day job, especially as a volunteer. Like many others, I’ve recently had to redo most of my training to get it all up to date, complete BPSS etc. Plus all the RAs at squadron now need reviewing. And a whole load of other squadron paperwork and processes that are out of date. Forget the cadets - that lot alone will take multiple person-evenings of work to get done.

I honestly struggle to reconcile that with it all being worthwhile.

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42

I’m in a similar position to the @TheSleeplessOne, the risks I carry as part of my job by and large goes well beyond that of Cadets, at work we have a sensible, measured, mature safety management system and associated paperwork system that is easier to operate and work with, and one which we can comment and suggest on, and get changes made.

It really frustrates me when I come up against poorly thought out, disjointed and far far too over engineered systems and procedures in Cadets, and also incorrect and utterly wrong comments that are delivered down when something is challenged.

Good job SWMBO doesn’t mind and often likes evenings and other times with me out of the house!

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