Skill at Arms Instructor qualifications

Adult Staff Execs
1

One of my friends has been told that his SAAI qualification only permits him to teach No. 8 Rifle, even though he is current on the L98A2 as well.

I can’t find any reference to different SAAI qualifications in PAM 21-C or ACTOs 41-43, so is this a local variation or is it a recent development that hasn’t made its way into the policy documents yet?

Cheers

[quote]PAM 21-C, chapter 2, section 4, para. 246.
Qualification Categories: h. Cadet Force Skill at Arms Instructor: Teach Skill at Arms and conduct Weapon Handling Tests.

PAM 21-C, chapter 5, para. 505.
WHTs for all Inf and Cadet (WS) must be conducted in strict accordance with the conditions set out in this chapter. The WHTs must be conducted by a qualified Skill at Arms Instructor who has demonstrated currency and competence by passing the specific WHTs for the weapon he/she is conducting tests for, within the specified time frame.

ACTO 42, para 19. b.
Weapon Instructor/ Skill At Arms Instructor. An instructor who holds a Weapon Instructor (Cadet) (WI©)/SAAI (Cadet) (SAAI©) qualification may instruct cadets and their staff on and conduct WHTs for any weapon for which they themselves hold a current, valid WHT or RHT. With effect from April 1st 2010 the WI© qualification has been superseded by the SAAI© qualification. Those previously qualified as WI© who remain current and competent may continue to exercise the qualification.

ACTO 42, para. 13.
Coaching and Skill At Arms training qualifications are also recorded in the RAF Form 7257. It is the individual’s responsibility to ensure that they have a current, valid Weapon Handling Test (WHT) for any rifle or pyrotechnic they intend to use whether as a firer, coach, SAAI or ECO. In accordance with references A, B and C WHTs are valid for six months.[/quote]

2

Who has told your friend this?

3

Definitely talking polldarks.
They can teach any weapon they’re current and competant on (i.e. have recieved the full course of training for that weapon and hold a WHT)

4

I’d lay money that this is just an individual SATT justificationist thing. As wdimagineer2b says, you can teach any weapon that you are current and competent on.

If they brought out a raygun and you passed the WHT on it, you could teach that to others because as a (I would hope) professional SAAI, you’d read the relevant amendment to the PAM and gen up on the wpn system.

5

That sounds about right!

Certainly our SATT used to put in place similar ‘No 8 only’ restrictions on some people’s WI© qual.

Whilst on the one hand I’m glad of that because I can think of a few No 8 only people who really wouldn’t be up to delivering L98 anyway…but then as far as I’m concerned they shouldn’t be delivering SAA at all.

Whoever has told your friend this is going to have a hard time justifying it.
The SAAI© course has raised the standard of instruction to where it should be - if an individual isn’t capable of delivering L98 to the required standard they don’t pass the course.

I wonder if someone’s just gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere?

6

Has he done an L98A2 conversion course at the SATT?

The edict up here when the A2 came into service was that while a normal training and WHT was sufficient for firing the rifle, those wishing to use the A2 with another weapon qualification (RCO, WI) required to have undergone a conversion course at the SATT (tier 2) to allow them to us either qualifications with the new rifle. This was to ensure that high standards were maintained in this new, complex rifle as it would be delivered by experienced, competent instructors.

I believe this is still in force.

7

If you have completed the SAAI(CF) Qual, then it would have been conducted by the CTT, using the L98A2, the qualification allows the holder to train and test anybody on a cadet weapon system they are current and competent on.

8

[quote=“themajor” post=6114]If you have completed the SAAI(CF) Qual, then it would have been conducted by the CTT, using the L98A2, the qualification allows the holder to train and test anybody on a cadet weapon system they are current and competent on.[/quote]ScotSATT lists a formal L98A2 conversion course as a prerequisite for the SAAI course. This could be some variant on that “requirement” set by the SATT. I’d need to question our SATT guys

9

So, partly to try and help answer the original question and partly to hijack the thread*:

I’ve been ‘encouraged’ to look into the SAAI© course and the info I’ve found on Bader says that the course qualifies you ‘to instruct cadets and their adult staff on any weapon system for which you have undergone a full course of training and hold a current WHT’** and that one of the requirements to attend is a ‘current L98A2 WHT undertaken with webbing’**.

So…the ‘full course of training’ would explain the need to have undergone the ‘A2 conversion course’ before attending the course (although you would think that you would have to have done the training in order to have the WHT… :? )

It would also suggest why the ‘friend’ in the OP has been told he can only instruct No. 8; has his L98A2 WHT expired?

My questions are:

  1. If your the only SAAI© on a squadron, how do you make sure your WHTs are in date?
  2. If your squadron/sector is lacking in SAAI©s, how do you get trained/WHTed on the L98A2 before the course?
  3. If you’re trained and WHTed on other weapon systems, then the wording of the qual (certainly in the pre-course bumf on Bader) implies that being SAAI© means you could instruct cadets and CFAVs on them. Are there some actual limits written down somewhere?

*Mwahahahahahah! :evil: etc.

**or words to that effect

10

[quote=“tango_lima” post=6122]My questions are:

  1. If your the only SAAI© on a squadron, how do you make sure your WHTs are in date?
  2. If your squadron/sector is lacking in SAAI©s, how do you get trained/WHTed on the L98A2 before the course?
    [/quote]
    The answer to both of these is the same. Get yourself out there, find a WI or SAAI, and get trained/tested.
    Whenever I deliver a course we tent to re-WHT each other (unless the previous one was very recent) to always stay topped-up.
11

Thanks for all the replies, they have been very helpful. I won’t see my friend for a while, and there is a chance that he got the wrong end of the stick somewhere. I’ll update if I find out any more about the situation.

New question:

Can over 18s do the ARD and SAAI courses?

PAM 21-C defines eligibility for the ARD course as ‘All CFAVs’ but doesn’t mention eligibility for the SAAI course.

I found a thread on the old forum about this, but it didn’t get anywhere.

12

[quote=“jacques” post=6125].

New question:

Can over 18s do the ARD and SAAI courses?

[/quote]

No. Must be a CFAV.

13

[quote=“themajor” post=6130][quote=“jacques” post=6125]New question:

Can over 18s do the ARD and SAAI courses?

[/quote]

No. Must be a CFAV.[/quote]

CWOs are eligible to go on the SA(SR)07 course (Pam 21-C, chapter 2, section 4, para. 247), so surely they could handle the ARD course?

Also, is the term ‘CFAV’ officially defined anywhere? Because staff cadets are over 18 and thus legally adults, because they are volunteering their time, and because they are part of the cadet force, there’s the argument that they could be classed as CFAVs.

I need to correct my post above, as after checking Pam 21-C again, eligibility for the ARD course is “Offrs, WOs, SNCOs” which actually excludes CIs.

Again, I find this odd because CIs are permitted to attend the SA(SR)07 course in the same table in Pam 21-C.

14

Over 18’s are cadets. That’s how they join the organisation and their status remains. CFAVs join the organisation through a different method and remain CFAVs until they resign/are kicked out/die.

15

No. 18+ Cadets can only do the Basic Coaching Course. This changed a while back, as they used to allow Instructor Cadets (at the time) to go on WI© and RMQ(SR) (I think?). It does say in 21-C that CWOs can do SA(SR)07, but I was told last weekend by a member of SASC that this was in exceptional circumstances only - for instance a CWO in the CCF(RAF) who had no Staff to run a range for the Sqn (his example, not mine). Apparently this will be removed in the next update of 21-C, due next month.

Personally I think it’s an absolute joke. We have the potential to be providing interesting courses that would keep a lot of Cadets over 18 from leaving; courses that used to be run to a high standard and allowed 18+ cadets to get lots of responsibility which can only be a good thing. It’s this Cadet/adult issue all over again imo…

EDIT: Also just noticed that (as Jacques said) our CIs can’t do the ARD course, but SCC CIs can! Bloody cheek!

16

Minimum age limit to undertake RCO courses (incl ARD) was\is 20. To the best of memory, when CWO’s were allowed to stay until 22, that’s how they got on those courses as cadets. Now cadets leave at 20, that means by definition, they have to become CFAV’s to do range courses.

17

Not quite - as recent as 2010 18+ Cadets could attend WI©, I know because I did! Now I think about it I don’t think Cadets could become an RCO at that time, otherwise I probably would have. I suppose it is the shift of qualifications over to SASC that ha caused this change. I still think it’s unnecessarily restrictive.

18

RCO was CWOs over 20 which became obsolete when we dropped the max age as Gunner says (though the docs weren’t amended)
WI© was 18+

19

[quote=“jacques” post=6099]One of my friends has been told that his SAAI qualification only permits him to teach No. 8 Rifle, even though he is current on the L98A2 as well.

[/quote]

i’ve only skimmed over the thread but to answer this query as a SAAI myself

there are WIs out there who are only permitted to teach/intruct bolt action rifles, ie No8/L81 i suspect the SATTs offer a diluted WI course to permit this. i know of one such WI.

any SAAI (ie the new course) will be permitted to teach the L98A2 and No8, with any other weapon systems that they have recieved the full training for

a SAAI is not permitted to teach another CFAV unless that training course is approved by SATT, with a training course reference number and is attended by a SATT member.
-note there is no “conversion course” the L98A2 is a different weapon system to the L85/L98A1 and thus must be taught as such.

this is to offer a paper trail for each CFAV taught to protect them and the system should anything go wrong at a later time.
if for example a CI was taught the L98A2 in 2010, and worked through to RCO in 2012, if that RCO then had an incident on the range in 2013 it could be asked how was that RCO trained on the weapon? the correct answer being after attending this approved SATT course (with ref number) as supervised by this SATT member. done to avoid L85/L98A1 experienced shooters shown the difference locally in an afternoon as a “quick conversion conversation” rather than the correct training program.

20

Indeed - WIs who were only trained on the No8 were only given No8 lessons to deliver and were thenceforth only permitted to train on the No8 until they had been upgraded to L98A2

Including the No8? I’ve not heard about SATTs running No8 training days and I suspect that SASC have better things to be doing with their time than attending them.

You misunderstand the meaning of “conversion” in this context. It isn’t a short-cut from a similar weapon type but a full training course on the L98A2 designed to “convert” a No8-only RCO/WI to one able to train/operate with the L98A2