Sir Chris Hoy - RAFVT(T)?

I like the ACF structure idea, and would be all for moving towards that in the corps.

Have a Squadron as what are in effect Sectors now, with a squadron commander, squadron training officer and squadron adjutant, and Squadron Warrant Officer administering the squadron. Each flight could then have a flight commander, directly answerable to the squadron commander. The training programme could be jigged to move staff where they are required, so a BEL qualified person is attached to a squadron and goes to each flight. Similarily with a DI, SAAI and other specialist instructors. Flights compete at Squadron level, then teams are picked from flights to represent the squadron at wing level.

We would then run Squadron camps and Wing Camps, drawing on quals and skills from the flights.

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i think Gunner makes a very good point - too little butter spread over too much bread.

it is the same faces at each event, the same people risking marriages weekend after weekend, summer camp after summer camp - either the ACO gets a big influx of dependable people who will do their share of the heavy lifting, or it tones down the relentless tempo of activities.

i have a story akin to Gunners Father-in-Law - only it has a very different, much darker outcome because of a choice not made - and i don’t doubt many on this board know of people who’se marriages did not survive prolonged contact with the ACO.

[quote=“Gunner” post=17860]
I also agree with t_l that the RAF should take the political bull by the horns and own up to what the ACO really are - a recruiting tool for the Armed Forces AS WELL AS fostering the spirit of adventure and encouraging an interest in aviation.

My opinion - which will no doubt be decried in some quarters - is one of getting rid of the existing commissioned and non-commissioned biffs, making the organization more professional; and making it smaller and more effective. However, we know that won’t happen and we’ll continue lurching from one week to the next with Air Cmd wondering where the next allegation. major incident or general screw-up will come from.[/quote]

is that not covered (in an MOD cloak) by

as one of the aims if we are to promote and encourage and interest in the RAF then surely this is saying “recruitment” without actually saying it?

We understandably worry about the effect that losing a number of staff would have, but we are also keenly aware that it’s often the same faces running activities again and again.

I wonder just how much of an impact it would have if we were to take all the biffs and either make them CI or lose them altogether (likely by their own choice having been taken out of uniform)?

At my Wing level I don’t think we’d notice much difference. The majority of the biffs are never seen at Wing courses and rarely at other activities. Those biffs who do attend could easily be replaced by the many keen and competent people waiting on the sidelines. I know of a few such people who avoid Wing events because they don’t want have to work with or under such incompetence.

Not only that, but incompetence spreads… You put a biff in charge of something and that mindset gets passed to those below who are learning.

At Squadron level where staff numbers are more of a direct concern we might notice a blip.
But I don’t think it would be a devalue to CIs to prevent some unsuitable persons from going into uniform. Remaining as a CI they will be able to provide that cover where required.

There will always be 3 types of CI regardless:

  1. Good CIs who would be cracking in a uniform post but choose not to for whatever reason,
  2. Good CIs who wouldn’t be suitable for uniform,
  3. Bad CIs who we could do without.

We do have an overall shortage of staff but I don’t think it would greatly harm the organization to raise the standard and remove some of the dead weight.

For example.
Take a hypothetical random selection of 20 staff. Let’s suppose that 10 of them are active and good at their job; 5 of them are active but incompetent, and 5 of them do nothing at all.
What you’ve actually got are 15 staff - 10 of them good and 5 of them a hindrance.
You’d be better off with just 10 good staff and lose the others altogether.
On paper you’d have a staff shortage but in reality the affect would be positive. Those who did nothing anyway would not be missed and those who were a hindrance would be gone.

The overall effect on the whole Corps would depend on the ratio of good to bad staff. I believe that the bad staff are in the minority so therefore the balance is in favour of a positive change by raising the bar.
Any temporary shortfall would hopefully be made up by the better trained staff coming through.
I can believe that some of the current biffs wouldn’t have ended up that way had they been more actively trained in the first place, and/or not placed into positions of power.

Now, I’m not suggesting that we necessarily should bin off every member of staff who doesn’t quite come up to scratch; I am purely exploring the theory of it.

What I do think we must do for all uniformed staff, especially if SNCOs become VR(T), is raise the standards expected before initial appointment, promotion, and subsequent appointments to specific roles of responsibility and authority.
We could be presenting a far more professional image and achieving far more if we have the right kind of people generally, and specifically the right people in the right roles.

[quote=“juliet mike” post=17861]I like the ACF structure idea, and would be all for moving towards that in the corps.

Have a Squadron as what are in effect Sectors now, with a squadron commander, squadron training officer and squadron adjutant, and Squadron Warrant Officer administering the squadron. Each flight could then have a flight commander, directly answerable to the squadron commander. The training programme could be jigged to move staff where they are required, so a BEL qualified person is attached to a squadron and goes to each flight. Similarily with a DI, SAAI and other specialist instructors. Flights compete at Squadron level, then teams are picked from flights to represent the squadron at wing level.

We would then run Squadron camps and Wing Camps, drawing on quals and skills from the flights.

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STOP IT JUST STOP IT NOW… Who told you you should start talking common sense far too good an idea to work it means sharing resources and there are people who dont like sharing Trainsets out there.

[quote=“steve679” post=17863]

is that not covered (in an MOD cloak) by

as one of the aims if we are to promote and encourage and interest in the RAF then surely this is saying “recruitment” without actually saying it?[/quote]

I may be old fashioned, but I’d rather they said it by saying it.

“To offer young people (who are in most cases not yet old enough to join the armed forces, or necessarily to even make an informed decision about doing so) opportunities and experiences which cast the RAF in a totally positive light, without real explanation of the risks and dangers inherent to a service career, to encourage as many of them as possible to join up as soon as they are old enough.”

But if you have a quick read around the RAF Careers website, the whole thing is blatantly aimed at fifteen year olds, with a nod to adults. It’s something that as a country we need to own up to. Nowhere else in NATO can someone join the Armed Forces before they reach the age of majority and the whole concept of ‘cadets’ as we have here is pretty alien to countries outside the Commonwealth.

Anyway, I’m massively off topic so I’ll shut up now. It’s just something that’s been eating at me recently.

Regarding the abilities of our adult staff, as an amusing side thought, the quotation from General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord could be considered, simply substitute CFAV for Officer and ACO for Army:

‘I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent, their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy, they make up 90 percent of every Army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent, he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief.’

Cracking quote! :smiley:
I’m putting that on my wall.

Looking at WDI’s comments where does the bloke/woman who when younger are part of the go get 'em crowd, but then they have children and the ATC gets put on the back burner for say 8/9 years or 12 in my case, in terms of their participation levels. I made a conscious decision not to drag my children to cadet events and activties, unlike some of my compatriots, and cut back on the things I did, so I could spend time with them and I wouldn’t do it differently. I know a few who just carried on and have then had to curtail cadet activities if they wanted to see their children, at the weekend. If you get my drift.

Then there are those who have other domestic things that prevent participation. I know staff who have parents and other family members who are seriously ill and as such they don’t do as much as they did. I know young staff who get “luvved up” and they fall off in terms of participation, especially if their other half isn’t an ATC groupie.

I don’t think it is a quite straightforward and simple as you seem to suggest, unless this isn’t within your personal experience or wider experience of the Corps.

Well, I’m not suggesting that ‘suitability for uniform/rank’ should be based upon the amount of time that person is able to give. I’m more concerned about their competence and ability to fulfil the role.
If someone can only give a little extra time but what they give is valuable and they carry themselves and are credible in their rank then I’d place them firmly in the “suitable” box.

It’s those whose contribution is unhelpful or even damaging, and who stand out obviously looking like ‘someone playing dress-up’ (and badly at that) which I take issue with.

I guess I’m most concerned with the “stupid & diligent” from the quote.

As I say - a smaller ACO - as in the whole of it.[/quote]
Then feel free to get out now and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. As soon as people like you think the ACO should be elite and restricted, the whole point of it is lost.
[/quote]

My Bold. That’s a new one… :ohmy:

I think the ACO should be more professional (why is that so wrong?) and ultimately the RAF needs to make up its mind where it fits into the grand scheme of things.

I bring plenty of skills to the table and the most important thing is that I add more positive value than I take out of the system. If I considered that I never then I would be more than happy to leave. The ATC/ACO is not a way of life!

The Corps is artificially inflated as it stands imo. Some fellow posters on here can see what is really going on – by taking out the ‘Gaps’ and funding a smaller ACO, the Cadets within it will actually be able to do more. It’s all about Quality and not Quantity and before you get excited, I consider that a Corps of 30 – 32,000 Cadets is about right.

@ Both – railroading people who express opinions contrary to your beliefs is not the answer and do not pose a threat to you. If your idea of a debate is to (try) and shout these people down then you have only shown to your inadequacies to others and that you consider yourselves vulnerable under a new world order.

Besides, what are you 2 so scared of? I’m not coming for you just yet! :wink:

I just personally think that the more young people the corps has, the better uk society as a whole. Our cadets are the cream of the youth in most cases - I wouldike to see 100000 cadets and more money to play with. Maybe just a dream

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They really, really aren’t.

Noah Claypole, if I actually know you and have met you in person, I would gladly debate this in person. The Corps is open for the youth to join, why try to make it something it isn’t? An elitist corps where only certain youths can join as you want “quality and not quantity”. Surely, the more cadets we have the more we can do for them. If you get a chance why don’t you air your views to CAC herself when she holds another meeting at your WHQ or Region. I’m sure she’d love to hear that there are some staff members that crawl out of the woodwork to try and reduce the number of cadets we have. Why don’t you get rid of cadets from your Squadron too, tell them that it’s all about quality and not quantity. FYI, that wasn’t a railroading, it was merely an expression of my opinion. Oh, and if you’re “coming” for me, don’t give me a heads up, I like surprises.

How about you stop reading into what isn’t there and give your head a wobble?

More Cadets does not = more we can do for them - without improving the Training Infrastructure, which includes sufficient quantity and quality of staff. I’m suggesting that we do not have either at this moment in time, so therefore would need to reduce numbers in order to provide a quality experience.

Or do I need to draw a picture for you?

The little :wink: smiley indicated that the ‘coming for you’ was said in jest - clearly too subtle for you chap. No smiley this time.

Reducing numbers will not help us to provide more of a quality experience, it will just mean less staff to run less activities for less cadets. Re the coming for you comment…

It sounds like corgi is on one of those Sqns where they have staff coming out of their ears…

Having a large number of cadets and few members of staff actually dilutes the experience the cadets obtain from the activity. As you can see from the posts above, it is always the same faces that are sharing the workload whilst others do very little, if anything at all. What is being suggested is that the Corps numbers are lowered - even if on a temporary basis - to allow us to consolidate staffing, recruit and effectively train others so that the cadets enjoy a worthwhile activity as opposed to one that is half-arsed at best; and completely unviable at worst.

[quote=“Gunner” post=17965]It sounds like corgi is on one of those Sqns where they have staff coming out of their ears…

Having a large number of cadets and few members of staff actually dilutes the experience the cadets obtain from the activity. As you can see from the posts above, it is always the same faces that are sharing the workload whilst others do very little, if anything at all. What is being suggested is that the Corps numbers are lowered - even if on a temporary basis - to allow us to consolidate staffing, recruit and effectively train others so that the cadets enjoy a worthwhile activity as opposed to one that is half-arsed at best; and completely unviable at worst.[/quote]

I’m not saying that I like the idea, but is there anything currently stopping Sqn OCs from intentionally limiting the size of their squadron?

I imagine the most likely method would be by capping intakes, eg. a very large squadron may choose to accept a maximum of 12 cadets twice a year.

How would you suggest reducing staff and cadets simultaneously? If I’m honest our CoC and others are doing all within their power to reduce cadet and staff numbers, by stopping flying and making it bloody awkward to deliver things. But not in the elitest manner suggested, so that we only keep the percieved cream.

Then how without making the the Corps look like an elitist volunteer youth organisation WRT adults staff, do you get people back in? If you make it elitist you would need to offer more of an inducement for all the extra grief it would bring. Also potentially create more of a gap between the uniformed and non-uniformed side than some regard as existing now and it could become more of a handful for the sqn cdr. The last time I was at the squadron there wasn’t a queue of adults nor have I had an inbox full of people all looking to become staff so that we could go ip dip etc. Like it or not we have and always have had “good” and “not so good” staff, as a squadron commander I respect and accept that. The task for me is to try and find things that means they all contribute.

Also as many who’ve been around for a while will testify on a squadron having the balance of staff to cadets and vice versa is virtually impossible and to artificially tinker with it, is just asking for trouble.

Actually Gunner, no I’m not on a squadron with lots of staff, we could do with more to be honest. I have been on a squadron that limited it’s intakes to four a year as it was a fairly big squadron. However, I have been on squadrons where there are very few cadets and we have recruited on mass scales to bring up the numbers. I see some of the other posters points in that sometimes squadrons can become too big, but why stop cadets from joining all together? If there is a neighbouring squadron, tell the potential cadet about it, they might go there and join. Another cadet enjoying the cadet experience is surely a good thing? (That’s not aimed at anybody in particular, just a comment)