[quote]Juliet mike wrote:
I don’t believe VRT offers do have the powers to charge airmen. This would be the same with SNCO and WO VR(T)[/quote]
Afraid you’re misinformed old boy - just because the power doesn’t get used, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As a commissioned officer in a Reserve Air Force, with a substantive rank of Plt Off or Fg Off, VR(T) Offrs absolutely have the legal authority to charge an Airman, NCO, or WO.
Whether they would know how to do so (since it is not taught - intentionally - in my opinion), is another matter…
My commissioning scroll says I can. As an officer in a branch the VR I have authority over all subordinate ranks in the RAF and other branches of UK forces. Whether I would is a different think. While on camp it would be easier to call the RAF plod.
i have to agree with regards to the authority of rank.
there are SI and SNCOs and i would like to hope now SGT (ATC) would be “ordering” a SAC/Cpl (RAF) about simply because the “Senior NCO” rank of the ATC does not fit into the RAF structure and thus there is not clear “authority”
its like having a “Senior” Scout having “rank” over a Cdt Sgt…the two structure simply dont run in parallel to understand where the line is to know who has the authority
however should said SNCO be VRT i would expect there to be a clearer understanding of authority. as ATC the staff is a “uniformed civilian” but as VRT a member of the RAF proper and so authority would exist.
[i]IF[/i] someone would actually use such authority is another matter
but as i see it if a RAF Reserve Sgt has authority over a SAC (RAF) then why would a Sgt VRT not also?
Here is a thought for you all, How many of the officers have actually read your commissioning scroll
and thought what it says??? I have and recently quoted it to a couple of senior officers who went a funny shade of white…
In it is states something along the lines that from time to time airman shall be put under your command, and it is your
responsibility for their conduct and welfare etc…
now think about all the times you go to a station, they have a night Ex and the ACLO team had arranged with a couple of guys from the station REG Flt to help run it.
they are under your command now effectively!
I think the vast majority of ATC staff would respect the RAF airman/ SNCOs and not try and lord their position over them (ok we all know the one who would), But people need to be told they have the responsibility of them as I mentioned above.
[quote]steve679 wrote:
if a RAF Reserve Sgt has authority over a SAC (RAF) then why would a Sgt VRT not also?[/quote]
My point entirely. They would indeed have that authority. An RAuxAF or RAFR Sgt has authority over regular Airmen and JNCOs, and as the RAFVR is a reserve within the RAFR, so would a VR(T) SNCO. VR(T) WOs would also have authority over regular, RAFR, and RAuxAF SNCOs; by virtue of their holding the Royal Warrant.
This is a can of worms, and - if SNCOs/WOs(ATC) go VR(T) without a radical shake-up of their selection and training - those worms will be everywhere; and very quickly eating into our credibility with the RAF.
To be even more controversial, I would suggest not all of our currently serving SNCOs and WOs(ATC) would be suitable for re-mustering as VR(T).
[quote]big g wrote:
Here is a thought for you all, How many of the officers have actually read your commissioning scroll
and thought what it says??? I have and recently quoted it to a couple of senior officers who went a funny shade of white…
In it is states something along the lines that from time to time airman shall be put under your command, and it is your
responsibility for their conduct and welfare etc…
now think about all the times you go to a station, they have a night Ex and the ACLO team had arranged with a couple of guys from the station REG Flt to help run it.
they are under your command now effectively! [/quote]
Indeed! …and there is no “effectively” about it, they would be under your lawful command.
^ agreed BTW - the number of VR(T) Officers who are unaware of their responsibilities is shocking, and needs to be changed. I am convinced however, that people further up the ACO food chain than Wings are concerned that, if Officers are properly educated on their responsibilities and the extent of their authority; (a) some will walk, and (b) others may abuse it …and thus the myths and misunderstandings persist.
Well, that is a very real issue. We do have a number of biffs who simply don’t cut it in their rank as Sgt/FS/WO (ATC) as it stands…
Regardless of any move to VR(T) or not I think we need to tighten up the promotion criteria and raise the bar substantially. However, what do we do about those who’ve already slipped through the net?
I’d love to say “demote them; all the way down to Sgt if necessary” but that’s not very realistic.
[quote=“big g” post=17737]Here is a thought for you all, How many of the officers have actually read your commissioning scroll
and thought what it says??? I have and recently quoted it to a couple of senior officers who went a funny shade of white…
In it is states something along the lines that from time to time airman shall be put under your command, and it is your
responsibility for their conduct and welfare etc…
now think about all the times you go to a station, they have a night Ex and the ACLO team had arranged with a couple of guys from the station REG Flt to help run it.
they are under your command now effectively!
I think the vast majority of ATC staff would respect the RAF airman/ SNCOs and not try and lord their position over them (ok we all know the one who would), But people need to be told they have the responsibility of them as I mentioned above.[/quote]I don’t think it’s a matter of ‘lording it over’; but if there was a disagreement regarding something that I viewed as dangerous or inappropriate then there wouldn’t be any doubt about who wore the trousers!
However - at the end of the day as a CFAV (not necessarily as an officer) I am responsible for the cadets; so my actions would be the same whether it was an SAC or a Sqn Ldr.
And how many VR(T) officers are suitable then? According to your little idea of demoting FS and WO down to Sgt, that should mean that a fair few Sqn OC’s and wing staff would be bumped down to Plt Off?!
[quote=“juliet mike” post=17741]Actually the commissioning scroll says UNDER YOUR COMMAND. No airman is under my comnand
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]
Don’t quite follow what you are saying…
Nobody has anyone under their command until they are placed there
either at your Sqn level or as I highlighted when they come to help out at a camp etc
[quote=“MattB” post=17742][quote=“big g” post=17737]Here is a thought for you all, How many of the officers have actually read your commissioning scroll
and thought what it says??? I have and recently quoted it to a couple of senior officers who went a funny shade of white…
In it is states something along the lines that from time to time airman shall be put under your command, and it is your
responsibility for their conduct and welfare etc…
now think about all the times you go to a station, they have a night Ex and the ACLO team had arranged with a couple of guys from the station REG Flt to help run it.
they are under your command now effectively!
I think the vast majority of ATC staff would respect the RAF airman/ SNCOs and not try and lord their position over them (ok we all know the one who would), But people need to be told they have the responsibility of them as I mentioned above.[/quote]I don’t think it’s a matter of ‘lording it over’; but if there was a disagreement regarding something that I viewed as dangerous or inappropriate then there wouldn’t be any doubt about who wore the trousers!
However - at the end of the day as a CFAV (not necessarily as an officer) I am responsible for the cadets; so my actions would be the same whether it was an SAC or a Sqn Ldr.[/quote]
Matt, I think me and you are on the same page here, these guys have a job to do different from ours (put simply)
we watch the cadets, they fix planes, BUT we all know staff in our respective wings who would love to tell someone junior what to do because they can. you see something wrong you challenge it but you don’t try and show off because you can
90% of Airmen in the RAF have no idea what VR(T) is… They dont know its a queens commission as far as they know they are Cadet Officers. Its just not taught at Halton if anyone tried telling an Airmen what to do with the VR(T) pin on the rank slide they would pretty much tell them where to go. If they tried to charge them they would just walk off before you can even get a 252 out.
[quote]zingy wrote:
90% of Airmen in the RAF have no idea what VR(T) is… They dont know its a queens commission as far as they know they are Cadet Officers. Its just not taught at Halton if anyone tried telling an Airmen what to do with the VR(T) pin on the rank slide they would pretty much tell them where to go. If they tried to charge them they would just walk off before you can even get a 252 out. [/quote]
Of course, the vast majority of VR(T) Offrs would not know what an F252 is, let alone how to use it!
Actually, in my experience, rather than seeing distinguishing badges, the majority of Airmen focus on the braid and don’t treat you any differently to a regular Offr. The only issue I have ever had is with those with chips on shoulders, and after a quiet word and quick re-education that problem normally goes away too.
As many people have pointed out, the key is treating people with the respect they deserve, professionalism, credibility, and not trying to “throw your weight around”. That, in my experience, is the way to get things done.
How manyof you on here have ever heard of a VR(T) successfully charging any member of the RAF themselves…?
As stated in a previous post the majority of ATC VR(T) staff would not have a clue what a 252 is where to find one or even how to successfuly fill it in, requiring access to the relevant sections paragraphs etc of the Manualof Air Force Law andQueens regulations in order to ensure that it is completed lawfuly.
A lot of Minor offences are now dealt with under the AGAI 67 rules so minor infringements have to be punished along specific guidlines these will goalong the Linesof Extra Duties, Show Parades, “regimental/Squadron work” these have a new established chain starting in the Army at the LCPL rank however these can be challenged and overturned by the RSM/SWO if they consider the punishment isnt fair.
Going back to charging (F252 action) the charge is written and sent on to the appropriate Charge Clerk in Station Headquarters where it would be processed and passed to a relevant Officer ro consider…To be honest I verymuch doubt that if a VR(T) even got hold of a 252it would beflagged directly on recept by the clerk and someone at unit exec level would becomingto visit the insigator with SWO in tow…along with the words “what the Bloody Hell…” in reality any issueyou have with an Airman/SnCO/WO would be better dealt withif passed directly to the SWOin the first place, he isbest placedtodealwith such issues on HIS unit… we are best placed dealing withbehavior welfare and discipline of our own charges.
Oh dear, we’re now getting into who has authority and ordering people around. I don’t think that just because, SNCOs get VR(T) status all of a sudden they will become power crazed. Some people must operate in a parallel ACO to me, with all these ACO staff running around the RAF like they own the place.
If we are on an activity with cadets we have the ultimate authority over what happens and who does what, because we are in loco parentis and if it all goes wrong it’s our soft bits in the mangler. If this means we’re on an RAF station and and any member of ATC staff tells a serving member of the RAF nope it ain’t happening, then that’s how it is as the RAF personnel don’t have the responsibility that we have. If the RAF personnel don’t like it and think that the staff are being unreasonable, well that’s tough and if they want to go around bad mouthing ATC staff, let them carry on, a number do anyway and so far I’ve not lost any sleep over it.
I think we have got some on here who envisage SNCOs ordering people around or disciplining them, as they would have some seniority, in all my years and I can say I’ve never heard anyone barking orders at regulars and I’ve known a few plonkers (SNCOs and Officers) who you could imagine doing it, but not. I can always remember from my cadet and early staff days a former Flt Sgt Rock Ape (from the 60s) who as an ATC WO quite enjoyed not having to get iffy about some of the indiscretions he observed when on a station.
As ATC staff on camps and the like, we should have too much to concern ourselves over wrt the cadets and staff, to get overly concerned about the regulars, unless of course they are interfering / acting inappropriately with us, in which case they would get their collar felt and a mention to the ACLO for onward communication to the appropriate channels. I’ve known younger servicemen getting a bit too friendly with older girls in the past, who have found themselves on the wrong side of the SWO.
It doesn’t matter what organisation you are in, there are always “do you know who I am” types and mostly they are ignored.
Yes. I can most definitely think of a few Fg Off/Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr who aren’t suitable either!
As I say, it’d be lovely to think that we could just chin off all the dross, but it’s not going to happen
