Except we aren’t talking about all Staff becoming Sergeants/Officers we are talking about everyone becoming Corporals (or whatever you want to call it).
That issue of “everyone does as they are told” would apply to all new staff equally be they CI’s or Uniformed.
Firstly that’s a local issue and doesn’t apply everywhere and secondly with everyone going into uniform as a Corporal etc in places where that attitude does prevail it would still be more of an issue for those who go SNCO or Commission.
Which they can still maintain beyond this entry level rank if they want to, but this would hopefully lead to a more standardised approach.
Flipping the question over, a lot of the problems are because everyone* has to start as a CI.
Time spent as a CI can be valuable, but it can also be time wasted, if you want to go into uniform. I don’t really agree with the ‘see how it all works’ reasoning, you should be able to do that as new uniformed / probationary staff.
In the same vein pre uniformed staff courses are a bit of a waste too, as they are about ‘is uniform right for you’. Instead a taster & selection weekend or even day sounds better (CIs could do this before transferring).
As I said on the other thread, the ACF PI rank seems the best route. I’m not sure about adult Cpls, that could cause as many issues as it solves. PI, as an adult uniformed rank, gives time to complete training, SC, and make the choice between adult Sgt or CFC. Once confirmed as Sgt or Plt Off and completed ATF the rank would be substantive as the probation’s been done as PI.
A completely separate question is whether a different rank or role is needed for people who can only give a few years’ service max (parents, people on work postings) - CI could still be appropriate there. Our current system’s just too slow at getting volunteers on board and to the point where they are useful.
excepting those few who go direct from Cdt to uniformed adult service
I am currently jumping through the hoops to become a CI, I didn’t volunteer I was “steered” towards a Squadron that I had served with as a youngster by a chance meeting with an officer from that squadron. I spent 32yrs of my working life in uniform and would have no quarms going back into uniform, in fact I would rather be in uniform. I am proud to have served our Sovereign lady the Queen and would feel completely at home in uniform. Sadly I am now over 60 and evidently not eligible to go into uniform. I am still physically fit and from what I have seen of some uniformed staff at other squadrons fitter than a lot of staff. My “application” was very early this year, before Covid hit us and I am still waiting for HQAC to deem me suitable and allow me to engage in the obligatory training. I readily accept the need for training and a week seems a fairly short course for an initial one, but why can’t the academic part be delivered on line with perhaps a shorter residential part to complete the practical part (stomping about and saluting and stuff). This would probably encourage more CI’s to go into uniform from the outset, many have pointed out that taking a week off work to train for a voluntary position does put off a lot of people. I am fortunate that I am retired and able to pop down to Cranwell for a week, even if it is at the other end of the Country! others are no fortunate.
The academic part of the uniformed staff courses isn’t as academic as you would think, it’s not sitting in a classroom learning rules and regulations, it’s subjects like public speaking/lesson technique and it’s much better delivered in small syndicates than to 1 person alone.
There is also a lot more to the course than the course itself, the networking value alongside ethe learning other ways of doing things than the local ways are personally more valuable than the course itself.
Evening, and thank you for your reply. I quite like the sound of that, it beats the throw enough “mud” at the wall and some will stick principle that I used to. I was under the impression that it was all learning the intricacies of admin, bader, SMS and all the such an like.
I’d bet a pound to a penny that the rank of Cpl (or whatever) in some wings, will go exactly the same way as the Off Cdt/Acting ranks - On paper it will be a training rank, but in reality they will become “just another uniform” to fill a post on a squadron - thus losing what makes CIs special.
Personally, I think we need a position that is similar to the current CI position, but has increased flexibility, and increased rewards. I’m just not sure that making it uniformed is the way to go.
I think some of them are still under the impression that they are running a 1950s era RAF unit, rather than a youth organisation, but there you go…
We’re now at the point of picking holes in each other’s arguments, which I’m not sure is terribly constructive. But, there are 2 separate points here:
I don’t know any CIs who left the Corps as a result of the LaSER review (which is what that point was about)
I have experienced strong coercion (/ bullying) to make uniformed staff move unit
Thanks for the mature response.
Good for you for saying no, but I have personally experienced the exact opposite when no would not be taken as an answer.
Even if they gave the same amount of time, many CIs would see it shifting the balance from they have total control of what to say yes/no to, to feeling they have to say yes/no because it is an ‘order’ from a Senior Officer to a more Junior uniformed member of staff.
If a potential CFAV who wants to teach once a fortnight has a family and has 1 week of annual leave left to take, I would bet a lot of money that they would rather spend it with their family, rather than on a training course.
I know plenty of CIs in my Wing who cycle straight from work to the Sqn in shorts/jeans/tshirt. It’s not feasible for them to go home first, or to transport their uniform to the Sqn in a way that wouldn’t make them look like a sack of potatoes
@ccw34 I think this is interesting that you say about senior staff “not taking no for an answer”… mainly because when in a room with sector or wing commanders, we can all play the game and call them Sir, but they actually can not tell you what to do… and they know that.
They may put across their preference, the organisational need, a bit of emotional blackmail… but they are dealing with adult volunteers who they can not actually order to do anything.
I think your viewpoint tends to come from our younger staff, where they may have gone from cadet to staff - so the wing commander does seem big and scary… but in reality you could swap the name wing commander with volunteer organiser… but it all works on mutual respect.
I just do not see how wing can tell volunteers what to do in this regard - if you say no to a move they don’t have a choice but to take that for an answer, it doesn’t matter their rank.
Remember here that what I’m advocating is a change to the process for new staff.
They wouldn’t feel any shift of balance because they wouldn’t know any different.
If you’ve got CIs who turn up looking like a sack of potatoes then something needs to change.
It is totally unacceptable to expect cadets and uniformed staff to turn up looking smart but just accept CIs looking poor.
Everyone else manages their lives sufficiently to fix their appearance before parade nights.
I think we also need to remember that we’re talking about recruiting more people into uniform for the benefit of the organisation - because that’s what we need; not for the benefit of the individuals by offering people a cushy spot with no requirements.
I do agree! I think it’s important to raise the point, that despite what should happen, it doesn’t always happen. Whether that’s because the more junior member of staff hasn’t got the confidence to say so, or the more senior member of staff is somewhere on the bullying spectrum, is something I think the Sqn OC should help with
Sorry - my point was, if you turn up at moment having cycled in jeans + clean tshirt (which is what you’d worn in work all day), you would still look acceptable. It is difficult to either cycle in uniform (I’ve tried, some others have more success), or transport your uniform in a rucksack
The interesting thing about this approach would be that all new members of staff would almost certainly very quickly meet CIs (and, some of these CIs could remain for more than 40 years, in theory). Some of the new members of staff may feel resentment that they are being treated differently to others, when that role is no longer available. It’s not something that can’t be managed, but would potentially need to be managed carefully in some cases.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b, post:131, topic:8476”]
think we also need to remember that we’re talking about recruiting more people into uniform for the benefit of the organisation - because that’s what we need; not for the benefit of the individuals by offering people a cushy spot with no requirements.
Or are we talking about recruiting more staff full stop. Showing them how great this organisation is and then perhaps persuading them into uniform later?
Let’s face it, CIs should stay as we need them as much, or even more so than uniformed staff. Why not have some root cause analysis on why people do/do not go into uniform. Everyone has their reasons, you have reasons for going down one path, doesn’t mean that’s the path everyone should go down.
Taking SSIC as the first step/minimum course requirement most are alluding to, there is some admin stuff, but not much. SMS/Bader, etc does not feature as this should be done on unit as part of the induciton/AVIP booklet.
But as an organisation we shouldn’t accept this - it’s something that needs fixing now, but something that could be fixed as part the rebriefing of a structural change. It’s been said that we should brief people better about their rights.
Nobody here is misunderstanding that it does occur, but I don’t think it’s a valid barrier to making changes.
Not just the OC (Sqn?). A good wing culture should encourage networking and mentoring - in the case of a Sgt, a hands-on and approachable WWO or deputy should be on hand to take questions and support and/or other, more experienced Sqn or Sector NCOs/WOs.
I’m not yet convinced that a change to “default” pathing into uniform is the necessary step to try to increase uniformed numbers, but it is a possible one. I would prefer implementing the following first:
Reduce the barriers to entry
Lower the training requirement at the lowest level and/or continue the online/residential modular approach (e.g. make SSIC as it is now a residential week for FS, not Sgt, you could lower the time-served requirement)
Improve volunteer management training for those in command positions.
Fix the culture with reeducation and shuffle those unsuitable back out of command positions. Improve/make more transparent the reporting process and available support.
I consider we may see a reduction in problems over time as the leadership training at ATF has advanced in recent years, but I think those who missed out should be made to do it before advancing to WSC/WSO/WCO. I also think we’re missing a massive trick by only offering the ILM L3/4/5 and not incorporating specific “volunteer management” quals that I know other voluntary organisations utilise.
Reduce the barriers, change the culture, improve perception - make uniform more practical and more attractive… We’d have to anyway before removing the CI path otherwise that plan would just crash and burn.
And this is where I take the line: any idea of true ‘orders’ went with the VR(T) commission. Now we just play the game - so if you want me to do something, you need to be prepared to justify it.
Which I accept.
I can’t change or deny what you’ve experienced.
But one example/your personal experience is not representative of of what takes place.
ACC has numerous members some of whom have indicated tales opposite to yours.
Yes you’ve seen it.
Yes its influenced your opinion.
But consider whats been said here = its not typical
I think it’s important to raise the point, that despite what should happen, it doesn’t always happen. Whether that’s because the more junior member of staff hasn’t got the confidence to say so, or the more senior member of staff is somewhere on the bullying spectrum, is something I think the Sqn OC should help with