Not a CI misconception. I have experienced it. In an idealised world, it wouldn’t happen, but, let me tell you - it does. When other staff see it happen, it does put them off going into uniform
1 Like
Well then people need to learn their rights and stand their ground.
It most certainly IS a misconception that uniformed staff can be moved around at the whim of Wing.
ACP 20 literally says that staff “should not be transferred between units without their consent.”
It’s the first sentence in PI110 “Transfer of Personnel Between Units of the RAFAC” and it applies to Officers, WO/SNCOs, CI, and Chaplains alike.
2 Likes
I’d be lying if I said I’d never heard “If you don’t move, we will make your life hell”. So people do.
1 Like
No, people need to stop doing it. Don’t blame the victims.
3 Likes
OC’s need to have the balls to tell Wing no.
I’ve had it tried with me when I had “too many officers” and I told Wing to go and do one.
3 Likes
Oooh that would be a red rag to a bull to me.
I think anybody saying that thinks they have more power and reach than they actually do.
And if it resulted in someone leaving they could tie up an awful lot of time in complaints procedures etc etc.
I just can’t see how things could go down that route.
1 Like
Regardless of commission type this would still be bullying in the MOD.
2 Likes
Half the sectors officers are on our squadron now.
A move was suggested… our oc “I recruited, supported and nurtured, they’re not moving”
We’re all still on the squadron.
I agree that those people who put unfair pressure or think they have the power to move people as they see fit need a swift reeducation.
But I don’t consider what I’ve said to be ‘victim blaming’.
The moment someone says “fine, I will…” they’ve given their consent. Even if it were coerced.
People need to be aware that they don’t have to and then they need to refuse. Otherwise the bullies will get away with it.
1 Like
Ummm by definition if it’s coerced it isn’t consent.
Ultimately this is slightly off topic but this does still happen, and people do get “poached” all the time. Some of my staff have been approached behind my back, some were upfront and asked me first before approaching staff.
But there is certainly more pressure applied on uniformed staff to move and support another unit, regardless of distance, than there ever will be on a CI.
2 Likes
But that then comes down to proof. A long road of complaint.
Far better if Mr Bloggs just doesn’t say “Fine I’ll move to 1234 Sqn” at all.
Yes, that is very probably the case. But since it’s illegitimate pressure which doesn’t have to be endured then on paper at least there is no issue with a CI going into uniform. They cannot be moved without their consent no matter what anyone else thinks or tries to do.
Such anecdotal evidence is not a valid reason for someone to choose CI over uniform; it’s a valid reason to re-educate some of the OCs Wing, and to make each staff member aware of their rights.
Indeed.
We cant be posted!
Earlier on in this thread you were talking about CIs being strong willed…
…suddenly those same CIs now in uniform are.no longer string willed and can’t say no?
Bull.
I’ve spent time at my third closest unit to “help out” then I requested to move…I didn’t like the option offerd and had a preference (closest or second closest) and moved to my preference.
I moved house a few years later (25miles away) and requested to move to my closest. I was asked to consider the second closest.
I said no and got my way
6 months later ask to take on Sqn OC of two other units (joint third closest) again i said no.
Your example/experience is limited. If you’re as “strong-willed” as you make out your own argument falls over.
I’m not suggesting people are not asked to move, but its the individual who decides to say yes, not the seniors asking it
This maybe what you’re seeing @ccw34 and only see or hear about the conversations where people have moved.
As I say I moved house and moved to my closest Squadron. But was quickly asked to move to three other units within 6 months…I didn’t and still at my preferred closest unit.
I think we need to recognise the difference between being “asked to support” and “told to move” - retelling of encounters can easily blur the two.
No, no one should be or feel pressured to move, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assess available resources and canvas for willing volunteers. Anyone who does try to force the issue should certainly be formally challenged.
Yes (in my experience) it is usually uniformed CFAV who receive these requests - but why?
Could it be because a unit is lacking uniform staff, or specifically NCOs or Officers? I’ve never heard anyone complain that they are lacking CIs.
So looking at the cause, not the symptom, would closing off the CI route as we know it not prevent or at least ease the shortages that create these scenarios?
2 Likes
Let’s briefly summarise… So far then we have “Reasons not to go into uniform”:
-
You have to commit to additional stress and expectation. - Many CIs already exceed the minimum ‘requirements’. Going into uniform would make little to no difference to the level of service they give or are asked to give. A removal of the redundant “12 hour” regulation would solidify the situation which already exists in the real world where all staff, uniformed or not, give whatever time they can.
I can think of probably only one area where there would be a greater expectation on uniform staff to attend, which would be Wing ceremonial. A big parade once a year at most. -
You can’t say ‘no’ to anything - False.
-
You can be moved around as Wing see fit - False.
-
You have to attend extra courses - True. You have to attend one additional course beyond the requirement of a CI.
-
You have to spend time preparing your uniform - True. But then, a CI should be spending at least some time preparing themselves anyway. No CI should be routinely turning up in scruff-order. Uniformed or not we all have a standard to set for the cadets. So really, we’re talking about little more than 5-10 additional minutes bulling your shoes twice a week.
Which other reasons have people heard?
I’ve left out a real-world example of my own experience: “I don’t agree with military uniform” - because that is clearly “wrong organisation” territory.
Somewhat aside from the idea of removing CI as an option for new staff (or indeed in keeping it but making uniform the default) we need to address the reasons why it appears that so few existing CIs would consider a move into uniform.
That has sure to start with addressing all the misconceptions and getting away from the jocular “you’d be mad to go into uniform” nonsense which does nothing but damage.
3 Likes
There are lots of very good reasons for both arguments. I think as an ex cadet I’m lucky as it made the transition to uniform easier. If you are a parent, I’d have thought the drill aspect would be quite daunting. At the end of the day I can’t say I particularly care whether people wear uniform or not. What we need is people that commit and are reliable.
I think the overall model of the ATC has to change because in whichever flavour of uniformed staff, the current general model is obviously not conducive to people coming along to help, amply shown by the lack of uniformed staff and the people we do have running around like blue bottomed flies. I know we can opt for one or two nights, but the default is 2 nights, whereas IMO it would work better in terms of getting people involved if it was one night. Cries of how are we going to deliver what we are supposed to, is why people carry on with the 2 night model, because any lack of ‘delivery’ is frowned upon. It requires HQAC to say sqns only meet 1 night per week at the same time reduce the weekend / part weekend that people do and have to do. What I feel happened was a few staff started doing more, which effectively forced others to follow suit, which has only resulted in people getting knackered and as I and others can testify getting up on too many Mondays wondering where the weekend went. As a cadet apart from sport during the autumn and winter (which only really applied to those of us doing it) and occasional weekends during the year, this continued into my early life as staff which wasn’t one of a weekend off being a strange beast. On top of this remove the minimum hours as it is meaningless and as far as I’m aware always has been. If you got some bunce for it, different thing completely. It just seems to be purely a stick that some with little else in their lives like to beat people with. If someone’s not being dong their 12 hours what’s the worst thing that can happen to them?
Overall if the CI option was removed HQAC has got to make the adult staff experience a lot more appealing than it currently is. Those of us that tick over from cadets plod on doing what we’ve been doing, because we have become habituated. But I find it incredibly difficult to make a positive case for being uniformed staff. I’ve been in on initial chats with people when we’ve had a WSO down. They’ve put the WSO on the spot with questions about what do you do, have to do and what is expected in a general sense the WSOs have not been really able to make it look like a good thing as the clichés don’t stack up to the person off the street. As for “encouraging” CIs into uniform, why should we? These are adults who can ask about it, but I suspect many of them see what a crock of poo uniformed service is, so don’t ask and if asked decline. Surely if it was seen as a good thing they’d be crying out to do it. Frankly a couple of years spent as a CI, allows time to see how it all fits together and then make a decision. Remember people coming off the streets are real adults, not like the children we habituate and then effectively coerce into it.
There is a massive irony in all of this ‘get rid of CIs”, is that those suggesting it would have, through their time as cadets, not done anywhere near as much as they did, if it wasn’t for the spawn of Satan CIs they now seem to despise.
How appealing is wearing a militaristic uniform and all that goes with it to people in general? I think people have recently become increasingly attached to the “romance” of their forebears military experiences, especially at this time of the year, but have not taken up ‘baton’ for themselves, so why would they effectively want to play dress up (which is all we really do) after work and some weekends? Especially as this can be around a number of people who are just youth leaders but get far too excited about the minutae of the military and forget why they are in it.
If the wearing of military uniform (aside from “combats on building sites”) was such a pull; us, the ACF and SCC would have uniformed staff coming out of our ears.
Those points may be true for your wing, but that may not be what is expected throughout the Corps.
-
New uniformed staff are told that they are not just a Sqn resource, but a wing one, and that there is an expectation to attend wing activities as DS.
-
Realistically, how many new staff will feel comfortable saying “No” when asked to do something that is perhaps a bit more than expected? Especially if there is a culture of “you do what we say, or else” encouraged by the Wing Senior leadership.
-
New uniformed staff are told that they should expect to move around as part of their “career management”.
-
To apply for a uniformed role, some wings have a potential uniform staff screening weekend. And if they pass the Wing filter, they have a pre ATF weekend. And for officers, there is OASC. And then ATF.
4 Likes