Sgt and MOI

Hi just wanted to know if you need MOI in order to be promoted to Sgt? I have just been watching the ATC75 parade (2016) and more than half of the Cdt Sgts (or above) don’t have the MOI lanyard - does that mean this rule isn’t really enforced?

It means that rule doesn’t exist

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As Alex Said, there is no rule that a Sgt needs to have MOI. In fact the recommended classification for Sgt is Senior.

Acp20:

Promotion of cadet NCOs. Sqn COs can promote cadets up to the rank of cadet flight sergeant. For promotion to cadet corporal, a cadet should ideally have attained Leading Cadet classification. For promotion to sergeant a cadet should have at least 3 months experience as a corporal and have attained Senior Cadet classification. These classification attainments may be reduced by one stage by the Sqn CO in exceptional cases such as an urgent need to fill an establishment vacancy or a deserving high quality but slow learning cadet.

Some squadrons i have seen will not allow a SNCO promotion until they have done Master cadet and MOI. That is a decision completely up to your OC though and not a corps wide policy.

Intriguingly though the CCF do have a requirement that Sgts are instructor cadets.

Exactly; I’m an NCO in the CCF(RAF), and I found this in a document straight from Ultilearn regarding the CCF:

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@James_Smith , do you know why this is? I am curious to know why there is a difference.

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@Intruder, frankly no idea sir, I would have expected stricter controls in the (formerly named) ATC (since we are all united under the great organisation of the RAFAC)!

Also the CCF(RAF) requires sections to have at least 60 before they can appoint a CWO; don’t think that is the case in the ATC (please confirm)?

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Thanks anyway, i am sure someone will come along that knows the answer, I would have thought it would be to do with the CCF Army possibly requiring SCIC before promotion to SNCO? (but that is purely a guess and i am not even sure if they need SCIC before promotion!)

I have known squadrons with 12 cadets on the books and have two CWO’s. So no we dont have a minimum number (there probably is a reccomendation but it is mostly ignored)

On that note does anyone have a copy of the ‘relevant’ ACP22? My version dates from 2000 :roll_eyes::unamused: and it says the contrary:

Now that’s an interesting difference!

So my (admittedly outdated) version of ACP 22 even suggests a minimum of 80 Cdts before a CWO can be appointed - so why exactly do you need 2 CWOs for in a Sqn (more like DF to be honest) of 12? Do they fulfill different roles? - but that can’t be right as the rebranding of RAFAC is all about homogenizing the rules, surely!

The answer will be that in the ATC a CWO is seen as more of a wing position; so the 2 CWOs would very much not be expected just to be doing things on their own squadron. Whilst it is possible for a small squadron to have 2 CWOs it’s very rare - my squadron for example has far more cadets than that and we haven’t had a CWO for over a decade!

@MattB fair enough; I see!

ACP 22 does not exist anymore. What we have instead is an old annex from that outlining the classification syllabus and requirements for promotion and then the ATC ACPs where we have to ‘fill in the blanks’ to adapt it for CCF

It is only a recommendation that cadets are Senior for promotion to Sgt.
Yet I know of 1 wing where it is mandatory.
Also then must complete a 2 day training and assessment process at Wing. Another Wing policy in contravention to Corps rules and orders.

It’s great the option is there for cadets to do these Wing run “courses” but dont make them mandatory.

God forbid… some Sqns have a grip on promotions and selecting competent people.

Hi James,

I also acknowledged the difference in guidelines (>80 unit strength to warrant a CWO) between the two.

You don’t find this guideline in the ATC because CWO’s are effectively junior staff members, taking on enough responsibility to be able to lead activities and can even assist staff in administration and managing of the squadron in general. Socially wise - I can’t say this about your contingent but ultimately my CCF is run within the parameters of the school dynamic, with a clear distinction between staff (teachers) and cadets (students). So it’s pretty hard to have that. We introduce CCF in Year 10 and ended service at the end of Year 13 = max 4 years service. I can attest that you still get a heck of a lot of experience and responsibility as a CCF cadet, but simply in the ATC these service restrictions don’t take place: CWO’s / potential CWO’s typically can start their cadet say around 12, and have 7 years service before being promoted to CWO at 19 (you have to be at least 18 for CWO eligibility). So you can rack up a lot more experience in the ATC. I would have killed to have as many opportunities to the courses run in the ATC, but conversely in a CCF you get more flying opportunities :woman_shrugging:

To add on MattB’s point, some CWO’s can also hover between multiple squadrons as a result of their experience- my wing has just recently implemented a Wing CWO? Weird idea to me, I’ll have to wait to get more impressions.

That being said, we all know that there are CCFs that don’'t follow this guideline (also on the use of No 1s for that matter). That stigma of having 3 CWOs in ill-fitting No 1s in a CCF exists for a reason: it happened sometime. I do hope that your section follows the ACPs: if your commander diluted the guidelines on promotion, doesn’t that dilute your rank? Rise above, earn your rank and be proud :fist_right:

The (still named) ATC do you mean?

The ACO became the RAFAC. That is all.

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Yeah that’s what I meant; oops. I meant ACO - too many abbreviations! :blush:

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No we don’t

Yes we do. It’s there in black and white in the training syllabus [the 2014 version on SharePoint. Westminster still has the 2011 version on which doesn’t include any MOI]. No one follows it, but it is officially a requirement to be instructor before Sgt, and complete Advanced before FS.
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