Just been having a flick through wiki to see what it says about the ATC and under service instructors it says:
Service Instructors
Members of the full-time Armed Forces often assist at ATC Squadrons in the role of Service Instructor – they engage in instructional duties which are often related to their serving role. Service Instructors wear the uniform of their parent unit and are addressed appropriately, with ranks junior to NCO being addressed as “Staff”. There is no facilitation for Reserve Forces to parade in uniform on ATC squadrons; they must parade as Civilian Instructors
my understanding, you can not parade as an ATC SNCO or WO mainly because there is a good chance you rank will be different, i have heard in the past and seen (but many moons ago) a serving pers wearing CFAV uniform and badges because he was at the same rank as his res/reg rank (not sure which)
However as to why somebody who is a member of a proper reserve force can not be a SI i do not know, i mean as long as the same rules are followed as regs then why not? i have seen a number of reserve si’s
A unit I used to be at had a reservist SI, but he flew on paper as a CI. (Mainly for weapons Quals reasons, he didn’t want his reserve unit to know he was a qualified RCO.)
As far as I know, it’s correct that reservists can’t be SIs - they are supposed to become CFAVs.
No problem with going into uniform - a friend of mine is a RAuxAF LAC and a Sgt (ATC) - so long as you’re not simultaneously commissioned and non-commissioned.
As a FS (ATC) applied for RAuxAF and now holds two IDs with two different ranks in the two different organisations.
i’m not sure if there would be an issue going the other way (ie Aux to ATC) all dependant on the two involved OCs i presume on the required level of commitment
Wiki is wrong, Reservists can be SIs. This has been clarified under the new rules for appointment.
A reservist can also be a SNCO CFAV, since SNCO CFAVs are not actually armed forces, just civilians who are given an ‘honourary’ uniform. However, if somebody with some common sense reviewed this, then they’d ban it, it’s just never been looked at.
^ That sounds dodgy as anything! I was (technically still am) a CI and a reservist and I was regularly asked “Why aren’t you attending X in uniform?” to which I would say “Because I’m a CI and CIs don’t have uniforms.” I always felt that AC Tango_Lima and CI Tango_Lima were two totally different ‘leagal’ persons; for example, CI Tango_Lima had/has a current CRB, AC Tango_Lima doesn’t, CI Tango_Lima is covered by the ATC’s insurance, AC Tango_Lima isn’t, etc…
Reservists can be SIs. This has been clarified under the new rules for appointment.[/quote]
Nope.
The new appointment process for SIs (PI601) gives no facility for the appointment of Reserve Forces as SIs - it purely deals with the appointment of regular personnel
[quote]PI601 wrote:
References:
A. GAI 1026 – RAF Support to the Air Cadet Organisation.
B ACP 4 – Child Protection and Guidelines.
C. ACP 1 – Ethos and Core Policy in the ACO.
D. AP1358 – Uniform, Dress and Appearance Regulations for the RAF.
INTRODUCTION
The RAF policy whereby regular RAF personnel are permitted to assist Air Cadet Organisation (ACO) units with training programmes, affiliation visits, competitions, sports events and camps is published in Reference A. These individuals are known as “Service Instructors” (SIs) (previously “Service Helpers”).
ELIGIBILITY FOR APPOINTMENT
Members of other Services. Members of other regular forces are eligible for appointment as SIs in accordance with the provisions of this instruction.
[/quote]
ACAI222 (ACP20B) deals with the appointment of CIs and has this to say:
[quote]ACAI222 wrote:
Members of the other Reserve Forces are eligible for appointment as CIs. Members of the regular forces are ineligible for appointment as CIs and their voluntary services should be given in accordance with GAI 1026.[/quote]
ACAI223 (ACP20B) deal with the appointment of SNCOs and WOs, and has this to say:
[quote]ACAI223 wrote:
CANDIDATES WITH PREVIOUS REGULAR OR RESERVE SERVICE
Ex-Regular Servicemen/women from all branches of the armed services will be subject to the same selection procedure detailed above and will be assimilated into the rank structure in accordance with paras 28 and 29 below.
Members of the other Reserve Forces may be appointed as adult SNCOs.[/quote]
In summary…
GAI1026 are the RAF governing regulations in relation to the appointment of regulars as SIs.
PI601 (of the mytical new “ACP20”) amplifies these RAF governing regulations from the ACO perspective and makes no provision for the appointment of Reserve Forces as SIs - regulars only …however it does clarify that RN, RM, & Army regulars may also be appointed as SIs, not just RAF regulars.
ACAI222 & 223 specify that Reserve Forces are eligible for appointment as CIs and SNCOs/WOs as appropriate. Not sSvc specifc, so implies that RNR, RMR, & TA may also be appointed, not just RAFR & RAuxAF.
Non-commissioned reservists cannot simultaneously be an RAFVR(T) Officer, although RAFR & RAuxAF Officers can also serve in the VR(T), and vice-versa. A commissioned reservist not wishing to make the additional commitment of VR(T) service would need to become a CI (although would be entitled to use the Officers Mess etc. on camps).
…so in answer to the OP, non-commissioned reservists can serve as CFAVs (and can only be appointed as CFAVs, not SIs) of either the CI or SNCO/WO variety. So the wiki is wrong
Reservists can be SIs. This has been clarified under the new rules for appointment.[/quote]
Nope.
The new appointment process for SIs (PI601) gives no facility for the appointment of Reserve Forces as SIs - it purely deals with the appointment of regular personnel
[/quote]
I see your nope and raise you a nope nope.
That doc was pretty much immediately re-issued to include the phrase ‘and Reserve’ throughout.
I’m looking at a hard copy sat on my desk right now. The ‘and Reserve’ is in blue over and over again.
A. GAI 1026 – RAF Support to the Air Cadet Organisation.
B. AP 1919 – Regulations for the Air Training Corps.
C ACP 4 – Child Protection Policy and Guidelines.
D. ACP 1 – Ethos and Core Policy in the ACO.
E. AP1358 – Uniform, Dress and Appearance Regulations for the RAF.
INTRODUCTION
The RAF policy whereby regular [color=#ff0000]and reserve [/color]RAF personnel are permitted to assist Air Cadet Organisation (ACO) units with training programmes, affiliation visits, competitions, sports events and camps is published in Reference A. These individuals are known as “Service Instructors” (SIs) (previously “Service Helpers”).
ELIGIBILITY FOR APPOINTMENT
Minimum age. The minimum age for appointment as a SI is normally 20 years; however, an individual over the age of 18 may be appointed, exceptionally, at the discretion of the Regional Commandant, Wg Cdr CCF or OC CGS. Current Service Helpers under the age of 20 who are already appointed may continue to assist the ACO as SIs.
Members of other Services. Members of other regular [color=#ff0000]and reserve [/color]forces are eligible for appointment as SIs in accordance with the provisions of this instruction. However, as Reference A is only applicable to regular [color=#ff0000]and reserve members [/color]of the RAF, members of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Army and their reserves may not be eligible to claim allowances for their ACO duties.
[/quote]
Well b*gger me sideways.
A brilliant example of the non-internal communication for which the Corps has become famed.
A staff appointment policy updated, then updated again, and no official notification of either.
tango_lima - I stand corrected! Thank you.
So, reservists now have the choice - SI or CFAV …unless the intent is for future updates of the new “ACP20” to withdraw the CFAV option.
A brilliant example of the non-internal communication for which the Corps has become famed.
A staff appointment policy updated, then updated again, and no official notification of either.
tango_lima - I stand corrected! Thank you.
So, reservists now have the choice - SI or CFAV …unless the intent is for future updates of the new “ACP20” to withdraw the CFAV option.
Cheers
BTI[/quote]
Helpy to hap, as ever.
Not sure what caused them to issue it and then change it within a couple of days. I wouldn’t have heard about it if I wasn’t the person I am (if you know what I mean?)
I think preventing people from being reserve forces and CFAV is logical…I suppose it would be logical to exclude them from being staff other than as SIs when it comes to it. From personal experience, the act of ‘double hatting’ can be surprisingly stressful in itself, since you’re constantly trying to cope with being in a similar environment to your ‘usual’ one while not being the same person with the same rights and responsibilities.
RAuxAF Personnel. Personnel from the RAuxAF and other regular or reserve forces may also volunteer to assist the ACO under the auspices of this GAI.[/quote]
Hence why PI601 had to be rewritten. I love the fact that whoever wrote it felt they could cite GAI1026 as a reference without apparently reading it. I also love the fact that the original (wrong) version was sent to COs by e-mail and the corrected one wasn’t. Presumably inspiring someone to go and edit Wikipedia (Why? :? Who does that? Seriously?) and leaving BTI (and everyone else) in the dark unless they happened to be actively looking into the whole thing.
Anyone else got any thoughts on the ‘CI on paper, SI in practise’ scenario presented earlier?
I think everyone I know knows this has changed to the new version- perhaps you are not important enough to be told these things or your OC does not pass these things on to you, has been known to happen.
I was told, funnily enough. But people more important than I am (like BTI) obviously weren’t.[/quote]
I’d only tell anyone if it affected them or I felt they needed to know, it’s naff all to do with importance. There’s so much crap coming out of ACO central and subsidiaries that you have to filter it. So don’t get too upset.
