SAAI - No longer weekend courses

Adult Staff Staff Development
1

From this thread:
http://aircadetcentral.net/acc/file-13/725-you-know-what-really-grinds-my-gears-the-gears-strike-back?start=225#21568

I received this email today:

[quote]As recently promulgated there will no longer be an option to attend the Cadet Forces Skill at Arms Instructors Course (CF SAAI), conducted by the ACO Cadet Training Team (CTT), over two weekends. This is as a result of the Small Arms School Corps (SASC), who have to be present to support all courses where a qualification is awarded, no longer being able to support this course (when run over two weekends), due to higher priority commitments. The SASC will, however. be able to support a number of week-long CF SAAI courses conducted by the ACO CTT at a number of selected locations.

The CF SAAI course is a very worthwhile course and is indeed the cornerstone of all shooting in the ACO. CF SAAIs and ‘Weapon Instructor (Air Cadets)’ (WI(AC)) are the only personnel qualified to conduct weapon training lessons and weapon handling tests. Although anyone who holds the past qualification ‘Weapon Instructor (Air Cadets)’ (WI(AC)) is still able to conduct weapon training lessons and weapon handling tests, it needs to be remembered that this qualification was last issued in early 2010 and numbers of personnel holding WI(AC) has already fallen, as personnel leave the ACO. It is therefore important we encourage suitable personnel to develop and to attend the CF SAAI course. If we do not, shooting in the ACO will eventually stop.

Clearly, the ACO CTT will not be able to provide as many week-long courses as they did courses held over two weekends, due to their own instructor’s (who are all volunteer members of the ACO) leave arrangements with their ‘day jobs’. There is an additional way members of the ACO can gain the CF SAAI qualification by attending courses conducted at the Army Cadet Training Centre, Frimley Park, Surrey.

ACO personnel, who wish to do the CF SAAI course either at CTC Frimley Park or through the ACO CTT, will clearly need to be well prepared, with a good working knowledge of the L98A2 Rifle, including operating the weapon from the other fire positions. They will also need to have had recent exposure to the rifle on the range and have an in-date WHT. I would also suggest they carry the recommendation of their Wg Shooting Officer as well.

The ACO have been offered places on the ACF/CCF(Army) courses at CTC Frimley Park, on a top-up basis. ACO personnel wishing to enquire about places on CTC Frimley Park CF SAAI course should, in the first instance, contact the Courses Clerk, coursesclerk@ctcfrimleypark.mod.uk This route was agreed between OC SASC TAG and the Chief Instructor, CTC Frimley park.

The CTC Frimley Park course training programme for 2014/15 and 2015/16 can be found in this link:
https://armycadets.com/about-us/cadet-training-centre/

Information on the ACO CTT CF SAAI courses can be found on the ACO CTT site on Bader:
https://sharepoint.bader.mod.uk/CTT/default.aspx

Whilst only now having week-long CF SAAI courses may be considered by some to be a backward step, there are benefits to the week long courses. These are mainly centred on the benefits in continuity in training and the benefits of working with a group of individuals all trying to achieve the same aim over a longer period of training.

Personnel wanting information on pre-course training for the CF SAAI course can contact

It would be appreciated if you could cascade this email to all interested personnel in your respective areas of responsibility.[/quote]

2

Not a bad thing at all. If anything, it will make the course a little easier for students by having continuity of training.

3

while thats certainly true from a learning/knowledge/instruction point of view, if you can’t get the time off (either from work or family) then the quality of the course being offered is irrelevent.

if this is set in stone then the ACO may need to look at the timings of its own courses - having almost all the critical stuff (bar the AT courses) during the week is probably going to make the organisation the preserve of the retired, self-employed and unemployed.

4

Shame they cancelled the flaming week long one I wanted to go on this week!

5

Continuity - good.

But…

Availability of SATT staff for a “week” (Mon - Fri?) course = degraded attendance.

Availability for students = degraded attendance. I have to bid for my leave 3 months in advance - & no doubt like others, there are other restrictions about what I can take & when - so unless a placement is guaranteed, I cannot risk throwing my leave away.

A last minute cancellation that wastes personal leave is a killer!

6

I hope you weren’t too surprised. Cancelling courses seems to be part and parcel of the game ATC (not sure about ACF) training cadres play.

There is or seems to be little or no respect for the fact that people have to take holiday and get the OK from the family (if they have one) to use a week’s holiday for an ATC activity and cancelling it at any sort of notice is unprofessional and discourteous. I think you should add the singles to the list of people who will be best able to do the courses as currently being married or having a family seems to be almost a black mark.
I will be intrigued to see where they intend running them and with what frequency. Probably not enough to service the organisation properly.

The problem we have is that they have us over a barrel when it comes to this and play on it, treating people poorly if they don’t acceed to their foibles is de rigeur.

They are fortunate they are part of the CS/MoD machine and don’t have to worry about the bottom line, as they’d have been out of business years ago. We used a local firm for IT training, they binned a couple of courses and our firm cancelled the contract, it seems word got round and now they soon became a former IT training company. I just wish we had the same pull over some of the jokers in our organisation.

I can see this being an unmitigated mess, UNLESS they realise that a course on x means a course on x and not only if we can be bothered and or it doesn’t interfere with something else we’d rather be doing.

7

I know it can be difficult (and financially unpopular) but there seems to be too many courses of all kinds being cancelled. Many of these can be run with a low number of candidates and cancellation of these should only be in emergencies. Other courses do need minimum numbers to be effective but the limits are set way too high for many (minimum 10 for a day being bored by a regional H&S bod to get teh ACO risk-assessor’s qual?)

I heard tell of one course being cancelled as they didn’t get the geographical spread of candidates they were looking for!

8

I hope you weren’t too surprised. Cancelling courses seems to be part and parcel of the game ATC (not sure about ACF) training cadres play.[/quote]

It is very very rare for any regional or national course be be cancelled. This is normally because the demand is high for the courses, rather than ‘minimum’ numbers. There is certainly very little chance of any of our SAAI courses getting canned.

9

I regularly see round-robin e-mails from our regional SATT stating that courses have been cancelled because they’re under-subscribed. When I last had a member of staff go for RCO (about 5 years ago) he was absolutely livid at the number of courses that had been cancelled, causing him to lose annual leave and causing me to write a formal complaint. I’ve not had anyone attend a course since, but the cancellations continue.

10

I hope you weren’t too surprised. Cancelling courses seems to be part and parcel of the game ATC (not sure about ACF) training cadres play.[/quote]

It is very very rare for any regional or national course be be cancelled. This is normally because the demand is high for the courses, rather than ‘minimum’ numbers. There is certainly very little chance of any of our SAAI courses getting canned.[/quote]
But isn’t SAAI a compulsory course / part of the training for staff? Whereas for the ATC, like most things, it’s optional for those who are really interested. The “really interested” people then get let down as GOM says. But the monkeys we have running the training even can the compulsory courses :ohmy:

11

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=21797]
But isn’t SAAI a compulsory course / part of the training for staff?[/quote]

No, only if you actually want to teach skill at arms.

This is very interesting as I wouldn’t have thought there would have been that much less demand for these courses in your organisation. I assume they are well published?

12

For my part of the ACO world, the general balance of staff who could instruct/WHT was not too bad.

Then we had the demise of the qcWHT =.wallop, balance of staff turned turtle. Don’t even ask about where the L103s are, who are the parenting units & where the WIs/SAAIs are…!

For me, the SAAI cse has to be essential to allow productive use of members of staff in order to guarantee the most effective shooting for the cadets.

13

I think the vast majority of the problems with courses being cancelled, are attributable to training teams having the venue or other resources, pulled from under their feet at short notice. Availability of staff [I]shouldn’t[/I] really that much of a problem if the courses are slated to take place at ‘x’ date in the future, as they’ve had plenty of notice (not withstanding major personal issues arising).

With shooting-related quals, the training teams are also reliant upon the availability\attendance of SASC staff and if they pull-out, then the course cannot go ahead. Same with RCO courses and in addition to having to have SASC present, ranges can be pulled if a regular or reserve unit needs them (and rightly so). Ergo, course gets cancelled, breasts get beaten.

WRT the difference in cancellation rates of the ACF -v- ACO, in my experience of organising a variety of courses, it has often occurred whereby we’ve had venues\DTE pulled at short notice as we hold - believe it or not - a lower priority than the ACF. My former WExO once explained to me that their training is mandated by Land Command and therefore their bookings take priority over ACO, locally-booked efforts, including those booked at Rgnl level.

In the 3-plus years I’ve been associated with the CCF(RAF), I’ve lost count of the number of SAAI and DCCT courses that I’ve been booted off, simply because ACF\Army Section personnel have a perceived ‘greater need’ to be on them than me. I only got a place on the Frimley M Qual course because someone dropped out and for my SAAI course, the ACOCTT were more than helpful in getting me onto their course when I tried three times (unsuccessfully) to get a place on the Frimley courses.

This is the nature of the beast we live with and whilst I accept that it is a prize ball-ache for those who have the rug pulled after they’d fought to get time off, in reality, there’s very little we - or the wider ACO - can do about it.

14

From the CTC Frimley Park link, the SAA cses for 2015 so far are:

11-16 Jan
18-22 Jan
08-13 Feb
15-20 Feb
22-27 Feb
15-20 Mar

This idea of using CTC is a totally new concept, but in light of the potential difficulties within the ACO, I suspect that a lot of sqns will try to use CTC.

I would hazard a guess that if a cse is promulgated at CTC, it will happen. Looking at their annual programmes, they run numerous SAAI cses, sometimes 3 a month.

There is a 2 x weekend SAAI cse for 2015 showing on the Bader link, but in light of the above, I suggest that that will change. First “week” cse (Beckingham) is 15-21 Mar 2015 (similar dates to CTC).

15

Unfortunately there has been such high demand from these courses that is is difficult for our own staff to get a place! Things should be better now as some courses are now run externally which means Frimley can run more courses. There are currently 9 scheduled for 2015:

11-16 Jan
18-22 Jan*
08-13 Feb
15-20 Feb
22-27 Feb*
15-20 Mar*
03-8 May
14-19 Jun
20-25 Sept

*These courses will not be held at CTC Frimley Park.

16

Contrary to GHE2’s typically constant ‘black-tinted’ view of the ACO, I’m damn certain that the CTT don’t cancel courses because they suddenly decide at the last minute there’s something else they’d rather be doing.

These people are CFAVs - volunteers - just like us. They are not full-time HQAC employees; they don’t draw a nice big RAF/Civil Service salary; and they don’t laugh gleefully at the ‘petty troubles’ of the Squadron/Wing volunteer whilst sipping port in the Officer’s mess and throwing courses around willy-nilly.

If SASC say “we’re not supporting your weekend-only courses any more” there’s very little they can do.
I’d wager that they’re as miffed about it as others are! Don’t forget that these guys and girls have to take leave from their jobs to run the courses, just as the students have to take leave to attend them.

I’d guess that the most common reason for having to cancel courses is under-subscription.
It’s a difficult circle - Students don’t want to book leave and commit in case the course is cancelled… the staff are hesitant to book leave when they see that only a few people on a 20 person course have bothered to subscribe.

Nobody likes having to cancel a course! It’s a royal PITA for ALL concerned.

Sure, some keen people are going to be unable to attend the courses because their jobs/family life don’t allow it.
It’s unfortunate, but frankly, it’s hard luck. Those people will not be SAAIs.
This is not a perfect world. We can’t cater for every whim of every volunteer because we rely so heavily (especially in areas like SAA) on the support of the parent services; and they can’t provide the level of support for their sponsored cadet forces by working every bloody weekend in addition to their primary role!

These are the realities of the world.

17

Maybe the solution to cancelling courses is run them in a place that can’t get pulled. If you rely on using service facilities then you are always going to run the gauntlet of someone from the regs/res trumping the cadet training.
I’m pretty sure (well actually know) there are cadet units with access to a range or a dedicated range. There would need to be a major problem for a cadet unit not being able to host. OK there might be an issue around weapons BUT I’m sure the DS would be able to sort out the logistics. You can hide behind problems and fail people OR look for a solution / work around so that you don’t fail people.

As fror running courses light of the expected numbers, so what. We run training courses at work and run them regardless of numbers attending. Yes it’s a nuisance if numbers are low, BUT the people attending have planned to attend and we’ve planned to run it, cancelling is not an option. This forms part of our KPIs, so we’d need to have a bloody good excuse not to. Actually running with smaller numbers is more fun. We travel to different sites and have had the room booked changed last minute, but we adapt and still achieve the aim. The problem it seems in the ATC is that numbers are supposedly a critical factor, but is that a valid reason or just an excuse?

18

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=21804]If SASC say “we’re not supporting your weekend-only courses any more” there’s very little they can do.I’d wager that they’re as miffed about it as others are! Don’t forget that these guys and girls have to take leave from their jobs to run the courses, just as the students have to take leave to attend them.

I’d guess that the most common reason for having to cancel courses is under-subscription.
It’s a difficult circle - Students don’t want to book leave and commit in case the course is cancelled… the staff are hesitant to book leave when they see that only a few people on a 20 person course have bothered to subscribe.

Nobody likes having to cancel a course! It’s a royal PITA for ALL concerned.[/quote]

I completely agree, but somebody has to blink first. To my mind it should be the CTT who guarantee that courses will run and have the right facilities, resources and contingencies in place to give people the assurance to take leave from work.

I think that by changing to the week long course has a number of benefits - one of which will be that those who apply for the course are those who are genuinely committed to becoming qual’d as they will need to take time off from work.

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=21804]Sure, some keen people are going to be unable to attend the courses because their jobs/family life don’t allow it.
It’s unfortunate, but frankly, it’s hard luck. Those people will not be SAAIs.
This is not a perfect world. We can’t cater for every whim of every volunteer because we rely so heavily (especially in areas like SAA) on the support of the parent services; and they can’t provide the level of support for their sponsored cadet forces by working every bloody weekend in addition to their primary role!

These are the realities of the world.[/quote]

Again I completely agree, but I must admit that I can’t help thinking that there could be an SAAI ‘lite’ course (i.e. only allows the provision of WHT’s) - otherwise I can’t understand why the WI© course qual still remains valid?

19

I suspect that there’s some pressure from above for the CTT to cancel courses where the small number of students doesn’t seem to justify the cost involved of going ahead.
(We all know that money is tight and I’ve received similar pressure myself recently with regards to drill & ceremonial for a national event.)

Again, that’s up to SASC. SAAI and WI are supposed to be equivalent qualifications.
I know that a number of SAAIs think that they are ‘higher’ than a WI, but it’s not the case. The problem is that there are many WIs who are really not up to the required standard. Many of the SATT run WI courses really weren’t good enough.
Given how close the ATC came to losing WIs altogether I wouldn’t be surprised if the old qual is abandoned in due course as a means to cull those who fall below the standard.

20

Lets just be frank. the quals that worked for us and enabled us to acheive shooting in the ACO are not liked or supported by the SASC.

qcWHT has gone, WI© cannot be far behind, and gaining SAAI© is being made more and more difficult.

Shooting is no longer a mainstream activitiy in the ACO, and will be the preserve of a few units, and certralised teams in the near future.

Good job we have Gliding and Flying as our unique selling point… oh… wait… :ohmy: