And remember it isn’t anybody at HQ Air who will be facing angry and distressed parents let alone anybody who maybe bereaved.
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Absolutely.
I know these kids, my kids go to school with them, my wife teaches them - I see their parents in the supermarket.
If I’d cancel a camping/walking weekend, or a canoeing day, or even - and let’s say this quietly lest He be called by his right name and manifest his evil countenance - a car parking day at a local Ag show - then I’m going to cancel standing around at an air show.
Other people’s delusions are not my problem.
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& this is the bit that forces the RAFAC organisers to comply with the no fail objective.
HQ Air says RIAT is “no fail” so if there will be aspects that are likely to cause it fail (e.g. extreme heat in rest areas causing cadet illness) then HQAC are to identify these risks & issues, requesting the support from hq air if their resources are expended to provide a solution (e.g. air conditioning units for the tents like used in bastion)
“No fail” doesn’t necessarily mean “push on regardless” it can mean “identify the issue & put in mitigation & contingencies and remove any bureaucratic barriers”. It’s making cancellation the last possible resort rather than the third choice due to poor planning or consideration.
Now if HQAC goes back to HQ air / 22 group & says “we can’t get enough experienced volunteers as they are annoyed with the car park thing” or weapons or because the first aid training has been paused then it’s HQ air problem to make sure it’s a “no fail”
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Now there’s an idea…
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I am sorry to be a pedant about it but…
under the paragraph of VA - no where else in the Warning Order does it indicate that the event or its activities are “no fail”.
to me, pedantically reading this the warning order suggests that there is “no failure” in claiming or being issued VA.
the line “no fail” is then followed by it is considered a priority activity for allocation of VA
while i recognise that members on ACC like to debate any given topic, and those many none users suggests ACC members are always out to find the negative and a much of moaners, it would seem true in this case.
As I indicated above the paragraph and wording is discussing VA and its certainty (“no fail”) in being allocated. the use of “RIAT is a no fail task” adds nothing to the whole paragraph other than to suggest to those looking to read more into it, that RIAT is a event which must go ahead regardless of any conditions.
I think this was a poor choice and order of words to indicate VA will be allocated, rather than an instruction RIAT tasking must go ahead and be manned at the planned level regardless which has been hidden in a paragraph about VA as an indication of the view on how important it is to make the RIAT tasking “work”
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correct. i had missed that paragraph as your first post/topic starting post refers to the words from the paragraph on VA:
as such, was basing my views on this paragraph as this was used to create this topic and thread.
I had not read the document in full, instead only considered the evidence shared here to form my opinion.
having seen this is NOT the only place “no fail” has been used, i take back my comments above in post #39
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Ay, no worries. I actually missed it too first time:
As someone who has never attended RIAT camp as a member of staff, I do not know what the RAFAC do to support RIAT.
What does the RAFAC do?
Can RIAT go ahead without the RAFAC staff and cadets?
Would RIAT be forced to close if the climatic conditions got to the place on the planning tool where it said stop stop stop, it is too dangerous for RAFAC staff and cadets to be working in the sun?
Half the problem from RIAT 2022, and our wider heat illness planning, is that we don’t have a good tool that says where we draw the line between frequent breaks and total stop + RTU (or cancel in advance). All the guidance is aimed at adults, not under 18s. So we’re guessing.
The 22 Gp investigation explicitly said that our risk to life planning could not be defended in the context of a coroners court.
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Saves the RAF from finding loads of people to fill the empty slots; all those in Phase 1 and 2 training!!!
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Or as happened for the 100th RAF Anniversary show, there was torrential rain for most of the weekend, so was there a major amount of suitable replacement clothing plus drying and warming facilities provided?
If you issue a ‘no fail’ order then you have to provide for all scenarios, even cancellation.
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some if not all of the question is answered in my post on this thread where i list the various “taskings” (note that list is from 2017 and so likely out of date a little now)
for ease the tasking repeated here:
Campsite build/maintenance – self explanatory
Welcome leaflets – handing out maps to arriving public
Departure leaflets – handing out “please come again/book your DVD pamphlets” to departing public
Arrivals assistance – attaching lost child tickets to young children
FRIAT – assisting with the “Friends of RIAT” enclosure
FOD PLOD – litter picking
Flight Centre – acting as a hospitality team/helping flight crew arrive at RAF Fairford post customs/pre and post display (typically getting teas and coffees – very much personal attention with the display pilots)
Pack Lunch Centre – making 2000-3000 pack lunches
Mess Hall waiting Staff – assisting with the Cadets passing though the mess hall
Park & View – assisting/overseeing the public at the park and view stand
Disabled Enclosures – see enclosures below
Cotswold Club/ Pimms Enclosure – see enclosures below
Media Centre – See enclosures below
Viewing Village – see enclosures below
Enclosures – these are areas where the public/media have paid extra to get into and are themed in some way (Pimms serves Pimms for example, Media is for the press, park and view for the days before/after for the public to park up to view the arriving/departing aircraft etc)
Disaster Exercise – acting as “general public” for a mock disaster exercise
Drop Zone – assisting with the “kids zone” of the airshow
VIP Duties – self explanatory
Crowd Line – self explanatory
Service Stations – ensuring the service stations are manned, kept tidying, answering general public questions etc
consider 2008 (cancelled show) or 2012 (more rain than 2008) and it rained all week before the show weekend…
So no cadets in that enclosure now or any other with a bar!!!
In a way you can how this language builds cultures - no fail is a great tagline, it’s all about getting the job done, being part of the team - but it means nothing when a CFAV is sitting in front of a Public Inquiry.
If you’ve read the inquiry report into Bloody Sunday, you’ll see a ‘vibe’ in 1PARA whipped up by an idiot GOC NI that countermanded the orders of the Bde Comd in Derry.
That contributed to what happened. Lots of other things contributed, but senior people saying intemperate things to junior people who were easily influenced and who wanted to please, and to ‘fall in’ with the vibe really didn’t help.
The same will come out this inquiry into SF in Afghanistan - silly words from people who should have known better falling into the ears of the impressionable and those who could see where their bread was buttered.
This has got binfire written all over it…
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Since it’s the same tables used for adult SP, it wouldn’t just be cdts and CFAVs getting the stop order.
I remember 2012 well. It was my first ever RIAT and I got caught out in torrential rain at the far end of the flight line (furthest from the tents and stands) in a short sleeved shirt. Fortunately, being July, a hot cup of tea was all it took to dry the shirt out with my body heat; however, I think the trousers had to be exchanged,
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Morning folks,
I’ve only just seen this thread so wanted to just drop in and provide some context around the “no fail task” message in the Warning Order.
This language was introduced as part of the VA prioritisation work that has gone on across RAFAC over the last year and to provide greater consistency as to the way in which volunteers attending RIAT receive VA given the cross region support for the event.
RIAT is considered a “no fail task” as the presence of RAFAC is seen as being important to the RAF footprint at RIAT and aligns with the strategic importance of RIAT to wider UK interests. It is not a “cadets and CFAVs will complete specific tasks at RIAT at all costs” statement as some have suggested in the thread above.
The RIAT team, supported by HQ RAFAC teams continuously review all activities, weather conditions, morale etc to assess what actions are taken on the ground, I outlined some of this in the planning stages for 2024 in another thread on the site. In 2024 this presented in the form of numerous activities being adjusted or given back to CTE, browsing time on the showground being reduced or removed altogether during warmer periods and an increased number of covered rest areas being placed across the showground for RAFAC personnel.
I hope that provides some clarity as to what is meant by the language and that the team continue to work on delivering an excellent opportunity for as many of our cadets as possible. If anyone has any specific questions, I’m always happy to help if I can.
Kind regards,
Ben
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But it wouldn’t stop them taking you down with them. There’s no legal basis (at least for the current discussion) for them to order you as a CFAV to do anything. If you’re staff and not happy with the risk then you can refuse to do it and explain why. If they push on anyway then it’s on them and not you. But if you just blindly follow “orders” because some phallus with thicker braid tells you to, then you’re in bother.
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My new name for someone I have the misfortune to have dealings with a few years back.
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