I think she heard you. All off-sqn activities now suspended in the South West.
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And as was shown in the investigation that WGBT and work rate tables are not applicable to cadets and in fact could be undefendable during a Coroners Inquest.
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Yep.
I didnât really want to call it out so publicly tbh, but as you already have, here we go.
After the RIAT 22 debacle there was an investigation done. This is what was said RE WBGT stuff:
Ahead of RIAT 22 and mindful of the risks associated with heat illness, the investigators were referred to a range of documentation sets including Joint Service Publications, Army Documents and Air Cadet Internal Briefing Notes that, while containing guidance, appeared to lack any credible reference to a temperature monitoring system that could be applied to persons under the age of 18 and for use by local commanders/trainers. Suggestions to extrapolate from WBGT adult guidance are occasionally presented without cross reference to any authoritative research or evidence to underpin the health and safety needs of young people. It is not clear how the MoD could defend any heat related Rtl assessments in the context of a coronerâs court. It is also noteworthy that the adult WBGT reference charts pay no regard to gender or to the varying rates of physical development of young people as they reach adulthood. This is a whole force problem that requires a solution that must address the MoDâs duty of care responsibilities as detailed under Health & Safety legislation.
It is therefore concerning that we are still using essentially the same methodology that has been pointed out to be legally indefensible.
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And it is still relevant today. Any scientific study undertaken into the effects of heat on young people under 18 would unless they could give consent using the Gillick principles would be unethical. I suspect that no studies following ethical guidelines have ever been undertaken worldwide, so the reliance on adult charts is potentially very dangerous.
ETA: can you imagine the legal and reputational fall out if it all went wrong. I remember the case not that long ago where SAS reservists died due to heat stroke on selection and the fall out there, and they were consenting adults.
Itâs due to be 29 degrees tomorrow.
Further ETA, I do wonder if the OC RIAT camp was appraised of the investigations findings and if so has realised the implications of said investigation?
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whilst I agree 100% and I do not wish to defend HQAC on this - what alternative is there?
Setting a limit on temperature would be pointless as Road Marching in 32° heat if far different from attending an Air Show (as spectators) or visiting a museum in 32° heat - it has to take into account the âworkâ/activity being done.
there is no other framework to use, the WBGT isnât an âMOD Preferredâ system over other systems, there simply isnât anything else to use.
so whilst there is a system which offers some guidance, it is better than no system offering no guidance.
While it may not be legally defensible, someone could stand up in court and suggest that they were not âworking the cadetsâ harder than would be expected of the regular armed forces
Again I am not suggesting it is right, but if we have a line in the sand at least we can indicate when we are not going past itâŚeven if where that line in the sand should be placed IS up for debate
But the WBGT is applicable to over 18âs, do we always consider the effects on the Staff? What about that 60+yr and 20+stone CFAV?
If staff suffer, or become ill then the supervision and attention to the Cadets becomes degraded.
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Whilst correct, the majority of our personnel are under 18.
We do care about staff. But we are using the same system for everyone aged 12 to 80.
âNot working them as hard as regular forcesâ is the point in the case that the trap sore opens under your feet, equating adults and children. Interesting defence in court in particularly in view of the investigation noted earlier and to which any Coroner or prosecutor will have access too, or they would just have to read the comments on here to get a steer where to gather ideas for questions.
Remember itâs the activity commander who will be answering the questions in court not the DDH for such an event at HQRAFAC.
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I donât disagree one bit.
And I am not suggesting we are measuring children and adults equally.
but i am suggesting that the line in the sand is valid to a point.
if a 17 year old driver is caught driving under the influence of alcohol, is there a different pass/fail rate for them versus a driver who is 18?
the 18 year old s legally able to buy a pint and drive home. the 17 year old is not. They should not have alcohol in their system, and being under the age limit, should there be a different blood:alcohol limit set upon them?
Do we work to a line in the sand as an absolutely maximum and apply that rigidly? (knowing it is not valid) Or have no line whatsoever which permits people to go past it through ignorance?
It is much like braking distances in a car.
the highway code suggests distances are X, but these have not been updated in generations, and in that time braking and tyre technology and engineering has improved and reduced braking distances.
Should the highway code adjust braking distances accordingly and thus permit closer tailgating?
probably but the line in the sand has been set and everyone accepts it - even if we all know it is likely to be wrong
I am not suggesting people should treat the tables as gospel, far from it they clearly arenât for all the legal reasons listed above (and I do not dispute this) but someone can stand in the witness box should it come to it and highlight that the limits expected on an adult were not exceeded thus although likely âoverworkedâ for a child, that someone can indicate they had a control measure in place.
we can argue until SW opens up activities again about how valid the tables are and i will not disagree with you.
and so
else we might as well place the line in the sand ourselves, based on no evidence at all and stop everything the moment mercury reaches 22° for fear of breaching the limits in a table no one is able to write accurate for U18s
and that is fine, and it is up to a Event IC to decide how close to the line they run the activity. but the point is there is a line to help them.
An Event IC may choose to take a pragmatic view that U18s can cope with 75% what a adult can, and so adjust their own limits accordingly, others may choose to half the limits, some may consider right up to the line is perfectly acceptable (in mild conditions).
but having that line in the sand shows an Event IC what is definitely âtoo muchâ even if no one can indicate what is âenoughâ
If the event IC says stop and withdraw, will if in particular itâs a big money item, will they be supported by thr CoC above from any flak thrown at them or will they be throw. To the wolves.
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Slightly off topic, but it looks like itâs going to be a warm one for the last day of the Nijmegen Marches. Theyâve reduced the last day distances and told people to drop kit and elements of uniform!!
Donât tell TonyâŚ
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Warm, but nothing out of the ordinary; that said those are sensible mitigations.
Military are dropping their dead weight tomorrow, granted this doesnt teally benefit the female cadets or U18 cadets.
But weâve been stripping down to t-shirts or MTP shirts untucked and sleeves rolled down.
I hope those at RIAT have done their water survival and navigation training!
âFollow the green cone road and turn 35 degrees after the 50th cone and walk 160 pacesâ.
âTeam Typhoon lost, last seen heading that wayâ
In many years past, when the camp was based in Malsbury, I would be sheltering in the back of the Italian C-130 having a refreshment from their cool boxes!
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Cadet teams and female individuals and individuals not carrying weight did the 30km route. All team members received their rewards for completing the march including weight carrying males.
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