Oh, yes it does:
The activity should only restart when the Activity Cdr is satisfied that …the cause of the incident is not likely to affect other participants.
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Really do have to wonder who makes these decisions and the scrutiny in place for them to make policy live.
Even after a report specifically mentioning the use of skills by paramedics they still just say that AFA is acceptable.
Personally, I’d say it isnt for an event on RIATs Scale.
Wonder if theres Any info on the First Aid and Welfare team they had for the 2000 cadets at the Muster? The only photo I seen had a team of 6/7 at best
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There needs to be oversight, policy setting, inspection for compliance by RAF medical services who should call the shots in this, not CRAFAC and HQAC. They should have the final say. Yes it’s costly, but someone will have to pay, but may end up far less costly than a Coroners Case and the resultant fall out.
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Which is why as you say, any HCPs needs to stay far away from this minefield. It’s difficult with adults but dealing with children is far more difficult. Any HCP who ‘downgraded’ their skill level at an RAFAC event is just lining up trouble in the event of an HCP investigation, I don’t think it’s defendable?
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Nope, Would hate to see CFAV loose there Job/Registration over something that happened at a RAFAC Event.
Unfortunately, I dont see a anything changing any time soon
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I doubt HQAC even have access, you have to pay for it afterall so unless a volunteer involved in RIAT just happens to be involved in event management outside why would they have access. (RIAT would be outside the Scope of both the Green & Purple guides anyway, even if they are a good place to start.)
Different DDH = different assessment of risk.
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Also, I’d be intrigued to know who “The National Air Safety Investigation Team - RAF Cranwell” actually are? Google seems to show nothing. If you google “National Air Safety Investigation Team” the only reference you get is this FOI and a job post.
Would be nice to get a contact email for someone in this team…
Also, just noticed the foot note:
Total number of First Aid cases treated by AC staff: 326
Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations (RIDDOR) for non Heat Illnesses: 19
Number of cases sent to hospital: 7
Heat illnesses (non-serious) declared to DAIB: 73
Those numbers seem very high. I know it’s a big event, but that those numbers are still a lot higher than I would expect. In the last 10 years I can only think of about 3 cases total where a cadet or CFAV ended up in hospital.
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I have many years experience at RIAT and can confirm that the first aid “tent” (bunker) is not stocked by personal kit - much of it is supplied by RAFCT or by the RAF directly.
(beds, dividers, hazard waste bins, boxes and cases of “first aid box” kit all included.
This is not to say that medical kit on site is not personal, i am sure those uber keen First Aiders carry a significant personal rucksac of personal sourced kit but this is not the “norm” or expected.
edit to add: having read the FOI report, the oxygen bottle I doubt was brought on a request and likely to be something that FA had in their personal kit they choose to make available to the FA team.
As far as I am aware, given the facilities on site (ie at Fariford, not on camp) AFA is all that is required and indeed expected at the RIAT Camp.
exactly this
However i know many of the first aiders are more than AFA outside of the RAFAC, some professional FAs, other teach RA courses as their “9-5”, at least one i know of (namely Wg Cdr OC RIAT) is a professional paramedic.
And yes I have seen members of the FA team carry what looks like a paramedic/first responder style “grab bag” attending first aid calls at RIAT.
Are these persons put into the FA role to act as the dedicate AFA qualified team? Yes
Do these persons step outside of that remit, into their own experience/knowledge/qualification outside of AFA/the RAFAC role - absolutely
should they? that is for someone else to decide and determine. if some has the skills, knowledge, qualifications and kit to deal with an injury on site is it “right” to deal with it there and then (rather than raise it to the Fairford medical team) or is it “easy” to do it that way??
so where the temperatures.
I seem to recall reading something that said the numbers were proportional to the temperature increase.
I am not disagreeing with the numbers being high, but i think they were acknowledged as proportional given the circumstances (although as we well know - those circumstances could/should have seen a canx order)
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Yes.
And they should be appropriately insured to do that, so that they feel supported in doing so. (This could be personally provided, of course - members of the college of paramedics, for example, have insurance that covers voluntary events as well as paid work outside of their main job up to an earning of £5k per year. But they should still be supported in this, not be technically stepping outside of the “rules”)
The alternative may be to face their regulator, and that is a hassle no-one wants.
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As a non medical person, I do wonder how much of a difference there is between:
- Acting as a first aider as a primary role, but not being able to ‘act down’ from paramedic level
and
- Acting as a RIAT flight IC and providing first aid at paramedic level (as they can’t ‘act down’) when a cadet falls ill
The question is not so much should they step out side that remit but should they be expected to.
It should always be an individuals personal decision whether to do full paramedic training on only stick to the AFA. They are the ones risking their jobs & no where the lines are professionally.
However from a planning & expectation point of view these qualifications should be ignored & treated as a bonus.
You also get into the sticky situation of if the individual is volunteer or working & could their employer bill RIAT if the individual steps outside of the volunteering role & into their paid role.
no - a Paramedic/Nurse/Doctor is not so by employment, but by registration. They maintain that status (and relevant legal status - eg prescribing/drug exemptions) in all walks of life, irrespective and independent of their main employer.
They probably could, however, if they used equipment provided by their employer. I don’t know for sure though - would probably depend on what basis that equipment was provided and who the employer is.
Another thought - the local ambulance service - SWAST? SCAS? - probably have some form of staff responder scheme similar to CFRs but allowing staff to practice at their own scope of practice. In that situation, I think a quick phone call to get a CAD log should be enough to get insurance cover through their work, and allow them to use work-provided equipment? I don’t know, would probably depend on each trust’s policies.
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Training, yes. However, some professions (notably, doctors - source here) have a professional duty to provide aid within their scope of practise at all times - they don’t have a choice, it is part of the duties upon them when they register.
I would imagine the HCPC and NMC would take a similar view if asked, although I don’t think they have openly stated it in the same way.
This does not surprise me and is the same for the police. I recall when on my Staff course at Cranwell (many moons ago now) there was a fellow CFAV who was a copper and was told in no uncertain terms he could not act as a Policeman should he see anything untoward at Sqn and that he should stand back, act as the CFAV he is and call 999 (he later told us at break that his employer expects him to act should anything be seen which would require police intervention and why you hear of “off duty police” getting involved as it is their duty)
As such having a paramedic/similar as a member of the FA team it doesn’t surprise me if they went above and beyond AFA remit
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I watched - in an amused, agape way - as a VRT Sqn Ldr (who sold office supplies for a living) spent 20 minutes lecturing a CVAF who happened to be a Police Constable on the primacy of the ACO chain of command in determining the nature of Fraud.
Quite what brought this about I’ve no idea, but it was a massive red flag regarding the attitude of many in the ACO towards the idea of ‘my trainset, my rules’.
Aye, get tae xxxx pal…
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Outside of the RAFAC they would be acting on the ‘good samaritan’ principle, and would be judged against a reasonably competent person of similar qualifications and skills. People have tried to sue medical professionals for such things as broken ribs and sternum following CPR.
The RAFAC by asking or detailing them for such tasks puts them outside such principles. Who provides their medical oversight and professional indemnity insurance in particular if said paramedic has none and does no work in the private sector, the NHS certainly wouldn’t do so.
Said report has opened a very large can of worms for anybody who is a CFAV and has medical qualifications.
Yeah they tried saying that on my course and were told in no uncertain terms by the 3 of us present that it wasn’t how the game was played.
In some if not most areas that is what we can do, your generally not expected to put your life in danger and calling 999 and acting as a professional witness can be a totally acceptable decision. (The same would go for any slow time investigation). But if for example I made a decision that I needed to use force I would be doing so in my professional capacity not my volunteer one.
One of the First Aid geeks came unstuck with that in my old Wing they decided that an appropriate AFA scenario was “Cadet cutting own arms”, the PC/CFAV dealt with it as they would at work. I think the geek stooge needed a clean pair of pants afterwards.
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