Retesting why, when it doesn't happen for everything


#41

No you can’t unless you get it unlocked adjust it and then get it ‘reapproved’. Essentially because we can’t be trusted.

People on here will say how easy it is, but at say 0500 when you might be assembling people for something and someone can’t make it, probably not as easy.

OK if you have a signal where ever you happen to be.


#42

Staff can’t be amended following activity approval.

However, you can pull the activity back to draft and resubmit - so long as your WShoO is on the ball or you can following the planning process as published by TDT earlier this year when the amendment to any staff is completed following the activity.


#43

Apart from some new unnecessary recent addition the AT world has had these aspects for years.
More of a nuisance before electronic documents. I don’t many who do AT who haven’t got a route cards and maps going back years. RAs have been around long enough now to be in that category and the silly emergency action sheets will be as time goes on. Among our little group we already have these for the areas we use.
The biggest pain wrt AT was we used to do a block application for several places to use over the summer, but now you have to do individual SMS nonsenses.


#44

…a year?

Because it’s annual.

Annual WHT.

It used to be Annual Personals Weapons Test. Now Annual Combat Marksmanship Test.

You usually do it all in oner, to get it out the way. Get tested, then check zeros, Range Packages, Live Firing Packages.

Every 6 months seems overkill. Scuse the pun. Your lying doing piddly shoots. Your not doing LF or CQB or section battle drills.
You have so much safety staff and problems can be spotted and sorted. And any retests can be found pretty quickly.

Just more admin and paperwork to justify some officers job flying a desk.


#45

Friends of mine in the regular’s also have a 6 month validity on their WHT, which they complete Annually so that can complete their ACMT as that’s normally the only time they pick up a weapon.

They would always be tested prior to going on Tour too.

Is this a Single Service policy? Or is it laid down in PAM 21?


#46

Unless it’s a validity on when you can complete the ACMT, which lasts for a year? Or he’s a REMF?

It’s part of your MATTS. Mandatory Annual Training Tests.
Aka the biggest excuse for token tick in the boxes ever.
Especially MATT 6.
I can’t recall ever doing it 6monthly. And just before tour is pretty standard it’s part of your predeployment. Along with going through all the relevant ranges packages and other courses and ticks in the boxes you need.
Similar happens for deployments on exercises/other countries if it’s going to run into that time.


#47

IIRC the ACMT is completed Annually as the name suggests, to complete this a valid WHT is required, however the WHT is only current for a period of 6 months.


#48

To be fair, That would make sense in backward military officer logic. And if that’s the case. Consider my neck wound in.
But if your WHT lasts 6 months and your ACMT lasts a year, how can you use your weapon for the second half of the year, your WHT is out of date! That has officer logic written all over it.

I would trust a Cadet with more safety staff than shooters over a Desk jockey in the regulars that hasn’t touched a weapon in a 6months, and can’t load a magazine properly.


#49

Correct - ACMT is proficiency in marksmanship, not proficiency in drill. ACMT is deemed to last one year, however, if you get dicked for guard duty 8 months after it, you require a new WHT to perform the duty and show competence in drill. Your competence in marksmanship is not deemed to have faded in that time.


#50

Now that is some serious officer logic.

Guard duty, handling a weapon constantly, still need a WHT. Haven’t shot for 8 months, only fire position taken up is the Belfast cradle, but yea your fine to crack on.


#51

No, but the RAM is the overarching document, which can be amended - just let the SPO know


#52

This was me last week. Local orders are for tradesmen to be loaded and unloaded one at a time due to our lack of contact with the systems… fully WHT’ed, they just needed to be sure with proficiency on our part.

I can see why a cadet who only shoots once a year needs that extra top cover.


#53

Only on Ops (once or twice) have I ever had to handle a weapon between WHTs. After the WHT, it’s likely the next set of NSPs many regular personnel will do will be collecting their weapon before their next CCS/IRT and WHT.:slightly_smiling_face:


#54

So why is it has been spun that what we have been told to do (WHT every 6 months) reflects the regular services which is why we have to do it. I still don’t think that you’d forget what to do after more than 6 months and be supposedly unsafe. I hadn’t shot a N°8 for around 15 years and was handed a L98 with about 5 minutes famil and then handed some rounds to lose. Which I managed without much more than an achy shoulder, more to do with age than the rounds fired.

So yet another lie or misconception we’ve been allowed to believe from the powers that be. I wonder just where integrity sits within their remit.


#55

At least you aren’t subject to the WESTMINSTER governance report, which fails unless every Army section officer has a current, in-date WHT. Amusing to discover this standard isn’t being applied to the regular forces…


#56

Your average member of staff wouldn’t, no, however a junior cadet who has only done 1 WHT in their life might do.


#57

I don’t know, I only ever used an SLR at annual camp and never touched one in between, and we just got down and cracked on. Bearing in mind the only instruction I had on it was 30 minutes at RAF Lyneham in 1980 from some Rocks.

I don’t think we give our young people enough credit, in our risk averse sphincter covering world.


#58

If they are so good, why do we have cadets that fail the test?

This proves the need of the test, especially in some instances of failure that you would not want to see on a range.

Remember the test is 1:1 or 1:2 at most, while the guideline for inexperienced firers on a range is 1:3


#59

Failing a test doesn’t mean you can’t do it, just you can’t pass a test.

Who’s to say that they wouldn’t be crack shots? I have to say there is some real pedantry in the WHT which I’ve looked at thought why and seen cadets fail on this. If they get down and start waving it around fair enough, that has the potential to not be good.

When I was learning to drive I failed two tests, but it didn’t mean I couldn’t drive, just failed on some nonsense, my instructor’s word at the time. Apart from doing emergency stops and practicing other things they tested for at the time, I would drive from my house to wherever the instructor said with little or no other intervention.


#60

Pretty good juxtaposition. But if you fail the assessment, then you can’t do it.

Irrelevant. Failing a safety test has no bearing on how good at shot they will be, you’re right, but if they can’t pass the test they can’t shoot. So a pretty moot point. [quote=“Teflon, post:59, topic:3099”]
When I was learning to drive I failed two tests, but it didn’t mean I couldn’t drive, just failed on some nonsense, my instructor’s word at the time.
[/quote]

Some nonsense… I failed my first test, some ‘nonsense’ too. But I learnt from the mistake I made. If a cadet fails on some ‘nonsense’ during the WHT, they need to learn from where they failed. The test isn’t some nonsense, it’s a safety procedure to allow them to safely handle the weapons system. Regardless if you think it’s nonsense, the MOD who use the exact same test (minus the change lever) for their full time servicemen don’t think so.