Regiment stable belts - a blue uniform query

[rockape3]

The DIs on basics seem to love doing it, but outside RTS I’ve never seen it, its either plain 2’s or 2’s with white webbing.

It’s a II SQN thing.

I’m pretty sure they don’t anymore either, they certainly weren’t wearing them when they took over ceremonial for 63 to deploy few years back. But hey its the raf reg, trends come and go, there was even a point not so long ago where II stopped wearing belts over their smocks.

[wilf_san]

This is an intriguing point, tango_lima. Firstly, accepting of course that the Regiment has tended to act as a front-runner for many of the dress changes that eventually spread to all other Air Forces of the Crown (cf greens, berets, stable belts), this last one is a bit of a puzzler in Air Force uniform custom and practice. I’m not sure why there’s such a reluctance to allow the belt to be worn on top of the jumper BG (outwith the Regt, I mean).

I agree, I too have seen some very high-ranking Offrs of a non-Regt type just randomly doing this, and that was even more the case ‘back in the day’ of the Pullover, Woolen, OG. People like the CAS and most of our HACs did this in greens very often.

But another factor that’s worth thinking about is how this actually started, in the Regt itself. The earliest that I’ve seen it done is from pictures dating to around 1947, with regular and auxiliary Regt Gunners from LAA and field Sqns, wearing a stable belt on top of BD blouses (yes, seriously), covering the wrap-around attached belt that was at the bottom of the blouse/jacket. This was in snaps taken at Catterick (I think?) but also out at other ‘2000’-series, pre-'57 RAuxAFRegt sqns.

And they then (stable belts, I mean) seemed to become very low profile outwith the Regt, especially during the RAF NS era, when BD morphed into tailored No2 dress, and eventually made an (outwith the Regt) reappearance in the early '70s in time for Shirts, Collar Attached, and the Star Trek zippy No.2 jacket. I have a feeling that when they came ‘back in blues’ (though they probably never went in the first place) they were initially only worn with the short-sleeve shirt. Now, at that time, like the stable belt, short-sleeve shirts were personal purchase only, and there was an absolute ban on them being worn off-station (in fact, probably just home station only). Even into the early/mid 80s, you would have been executed by the SWO for not wearing a tie on the station away from your desk or commcen etc. And stable belts would never (ever) be worn in public…but oddly, I’ve a feeling that this was probably the case for the Army as well, back in the day? Barrack dress meant precisely that, combats/OGs would never be seen on the streets unless you were shopping in Ulster.

All this has maybe caused levels of cross-ply confusion in the minds of the DPC. Or not…? But I’m stumped as to why the wearing of a stable belt is permitted at all when No2 blues, shirt sleeves and tie, yet not when wearing a jumper. It is primarily a decorative force ident item (when in blues) and on that basis there is a defendable logic in it being worn on top of the jumper by anyone that wants to.

As a related side-query, have they binned the plan for stable belts to be issued to all personnel that are required to wear RAF pattern uniform in the discharge of their duties? (note of course my careful choice of words…!-) Might that be the catalyst for this to be reviewed, and (re?) sanctioned?

wilf_san

[5432golf]

[quote=“redowling” post=1963]OC ATF wears his like that.

Only at certain times I noticed the two times I was there though! Not as routine wear for teaching etc…[/quote]

WO ATF does as well.

[the_fixer]

Webbing and stable belts look ridiculous over jackets and jumpers; they serve no purpose and look terrible.

I wish the practice would stop.

[Baldrick]

What about white belts for banner parties? I always thought it looked very smart, and serves the purpose for the bearer of holding the strop in place better.

(also, I found that if you were wearing a round-neck jumper, you could use the belt to pull the jumper down at the front a smidge so the tie was more clearly visible.)

[tango_lima]

Having seen various army types do it and now found a photo of OC ATF, I can see the argument: but it serves no purpose over your jersey, it’s not holding your trousers up!

However, since they don’t issue us with trousers with loops wide enough to take a stable belt* then the belt never holds your trousers up unless you wear it with your combats. I do think it makes the uniform look more ‘military’, if you know what I mean.

General consensus seem to be that the Regiment does do it, but it comes and goes on different squadrons at different times, then? I’m up at Honnington in February, so I’ll have to see if I can spot anyone wearing blue (I doubt it somehow :lol: ).

*Wilf_San: I’d heard that this was considered by the AFB some time ago and was what gave rise to the story that everyone was getting issued the stable belts themselves…

[Gunner]

I’ve seen it worn over the jersey but only on the odd occasion and never in public.

Personally, I think it looks quite smart. As you know, t_l, ex-Regiment personnel serving with the ATC are permitted under AP1358C, to wear the Regiment stable belt in both blue and DPM modes of dress. However, whether that extends to the Regiment practice of wearing it over jerseys, I don’t know.

[Leeroy]

[quote=“Gunner” post=2030]I’ve seen it worn over the jersey but only on the odd occasion and never in public.

Personally, I think it looks quite smart. As you know, t_l, ex-Regiment personnel serving with the ATC are permitted under AP1358C, to wear the Regiment stable belt in both blue and DPM modes of dress. However, whether that extends to the Regiment practice of wearing it over jerseys, I don’t know.[/quote]
[snipped]"

Removed as trolling. Let’s be civil please. OpN

[the_fixer]

A white belt CAN look smart as soon as its put on. As soon as one sits down or bends over the jumper rides up and looks gash.

RAF patten stable belts never look smart over a Jumper.

[rockape3]

the fixer wrote:

A white belt CAN look smart as soon as its put on. As soon as one sits down or bends over the jumper rides up and looks gash.

Thats because white belts are worn over jumpers with the white gloves and bayonet frog for parade practice, you aren’t supposed to be sitting down

Gunner wrote:

Personally, I think it looks quite smart.

Agreed, though I’d dodge wearing 2’s like the plague, dpm/pcs is far more comfortable

[Gunner]

@"rockape3" post=2035

though I’d dodge wearing 2’s like the plague, dpm/pcs is far more comfortable

Man after my own heart!

[SVS]

[quote=“wilf_san” post=2006]
As a related side-query, have they binned the plan for stable belts to be issued to all personnel that are required to wear RAF pattern uniform in the discharge of their duties? [/quote]

Yes thank christ. Far better things to spend money on than that kind of douchebaggery.

[JamesS]

To whoever mentioned it’s existence earlier, here’s the picture.

[merlin456]

Regiment stable belt with jumper…

(I know it’s upside-down!)

[Paul_W]

As a side note, aren’t Regiment officers also allowed to wear berets in No2? Anyone know where that comes from? Cheers.

[wilf_san]

@Paul_W This is my previous encyclopedic answer, an earlier version as opposed to my more-recent posting on the topic…

Officers beret

At one time, all non-regular Officers were permitted to wear the beret in No2 dress / BD.

SD peaks in No2 dress were optional for Officers on non-regular commissions, although the majority of such officers tended to emulate regular RAF officers, and consequently wear peak caps (this became even more ingrained as a behaviour once forage caps were no longer permitted to be worn in No1 HSD)

The RAF Regiment, and in particular the RAF Regiment branch of the RAFVR (following the original raising of that Regiment, see article linked below) became particularly-keen on the beret as headgear, even well-before the end of WW2.
http://rs42.pbsrc.com/albums/e336/wilfsan/rafvrrgt-1.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

Reasons for this would’ve included parity with the large number of transferred/seconded Army Officers that joined the RAFVR (RAF Regt) who also wore berets, as part of their normal army uniform (topped-off, of course, with RAF Regt mudguards).

Prior to mid-WW2, the two categories of Air Force Officer that were most likely to be wearing SD peaks were regular RAF and AAF. The wearing of forage caps for all ranks (and especially for RAFVR(GD) Offrs and Men) became increasingly-popular.

However, the Training branch of the RAFVR were particularly unhappy about the fact that AP1358 (back then, an Air Force Officers’-only dress publication) required them specifically not to wear SD peaks whilst on parade, stating that they could only wear forage caps under such circumstances. A great deal of lobbying went on, and eventually the AFB relented, allowing late and post WW2 RAFVR(T) to wear SD peaks on parade (like their brother RAF and RAuxAF Officers).

At some point (best estimate is around 1950, following the RAFVR relaunch in 1947) forage caps ceased to be issued, and berets became the standard No2 dress headgear for all Other Ranks (except certain key trades including RAFP and MTD), and were meant to be standard No2 dress headgear for RAFVR Officers. However, they still had the option of wearing SD peaks in No2 / BDBG, an option they tended to frequently favour, so as not to lose status in the face of their cap-wearing regular and Auxiliary fellow officers.

Throughout all this time, forage caps remained an optional alternative in No2 dress, but dipped very much out of favour other than amongst aircrew into the 1960s.

Another factor that pushed the adoption of the beret within the broader RAF (led from the front, by the Regt) was the universal initial issue of berets to RAF(National Service) personnel, irrespective of being commissioned or Other Ranks, at entry.

And of course, as we all should know (but have substantially forgotten) the majority of men who were called-up for RAF(NS) right into the mid/late 1960s, administered by the RAFVR(GD)…were, of course, aged-out ATC Air Cadets…who brought along their berets , classification badges and F3822s when they attested for Air Force Service…

wilf_san

EDIT
The punchline, regarding berets being worn by RAF Regt Officers in No2 dress, is that they substantially gained this right via the RAFVR. And ironically, the loss of that privilige generally amongst reserve Air Force officers appears to have been as a result of a clumsy-worded Amendment to the RAFVR(T) SD Peak Cap prohibition paragraph being revoked in a 194(4?) edition of AP1358

(I know it’s upside-down!)

No, it’s a hip-buckled original pre-locket stablebelt, that has it’s buckles 180degrees out of phase onto the wrong hip.

[wilf_san]

@Paul_W

@wilf_san

This limitation has become the case, apparently due to an error in the dress regulations that has become enshrined over time. It previously was not the case, or (more accurately) the original intention was that only regular RAF and RAuxAF Officers were meant to be prohibited from wearing the beret in No2 dress / BD, following it’s broader introduction to the Air Forces of the Crown via the RAF Regt in the 1950s. At first, no such prohibition was applied to RAFVR Officers, nor to WRAF/WRAFVR Officers.

Part of the reason of this over-reaction may have been down to the fact that (again originally, but during WW2) RAFVR Officers (of the original training branch, serving with the ATC) were not permitted to wear SD peaks on parade. They could wear them to/from parades, but not during. Here’s a contemporary letter from ‘Flight’…

I think it’s likely to have been an over-reaction driven by all the ex-regular Officers who came into the RAFVR from the RAF, post WW2, coupled with lobbing from 1947-onwards RAFVR Officers, that saw the removal of ‘beret in blues’ option for all non-Regt Officers.

@Baldrick

In which case they are most of the time a more practical option than an SD cap

In some ways, and to some extent. Read the moans of a non-fan of that headgear, from back when the ATC was a three-year old baby.

@Baldrick

The appearance thing is a personal matter, I like mine. I don’t think calling them “retarded” is appropriate, nor is it a very polite response to a well meaning question

There’s nothing served by calling them retarded, that’s not constructive. Like all hats, it’s possible to wear them wrongly, or correctly. And they are historical icons, undeniably and universally, of Air Force uniform wear.

But the founding intention was that all volunteer Officers serving in the Air Forces of the Crown were to have the option of wearing berets in No2 dress (and in previous incarnations of undress uniform, including B/G BD). Conversely (but on a related note), I believe that only RAFVR Officers had the option of wearing forage caps in No1 HSD, regular RAF and AAF Officers had to wear peaks in No1s…(but, rules didn’t really extend to Auxiliary Officers, who in their original classic mode were a total breed apart- they tended to form something of a role model for the regular RAF) .

wilf_san

ps I wonder if RAFVR(T) Officers that are now entitled to wear RAF Regt mudguards in No1/No3/No5 dress would be permitted to wear berets in No2 dress?

[TheDon]

QCS LAC-CPL wear a white belt over their jumper
QCS SGT-FS wear a white belt and blue sash over their jumper
QCS WO wears a Stable Belt and Blue Sash over their jumper
QCS Officers wear a Stable Belt over their jumper

Such can be seen in the 2019 QCS Remembrance Video

With regards to mudgards, you now have to have reached the rank of Sergeant or above to be entitled to wear them - or so I am told by an Ex-Reg WO(RAFAC) in my wing. RAF Reg Stable belts can still be worn by ex-regiment to my knowledge.

[daws1159]

This seems to change dependant on who’s running the Regiment on any particular day.

[JustCallMeFlight]

It’s all about context. You don’t have to have been a sgt to wear mudguards per se, but you have to have been an RAF Regt sgt to wear them with sgt stripes. Once you get promoted to a rank that you haven’t done the RAF Regt course for, the mudguards come off.