I’m a CWO at my unit and that time has come for promotions at the squadron, Obviously I’ve had a large input towards who gets promoted but long story short me and my CO are poles apart as to how big the NCO team should be and who should get promoted.
To that end, I remember (it was a while ago) reading in some sort of ACP, ACTI that contained a table with the “recommended” NCO to Cadet ratio for squadron’s of varying sizes, Does this still exist; if so could someone guide me to it?
Rather than say that it “still exists”, it would be more accurate to say “it exists again”.
When they made the Personnel Instructions in to the new manual ACP20 they omitted those tables but they recently reappeared.
They are called Establishment Scales and can be found in Annex B to PI101
We have just under 30 cadets currently the NCO team is as follows:
1 CWO
3 Sgt’s
3 Cpl’s
We will be getting a new FS either way, which is great.
My argument is that the NCO team doesn’t need to be any bigger than 8, partly because I don’t feel that making the NCO team much bigger is going to make any difference to what is already an extremely efficient, pro-active NCO team. My CO says otherwise.
It may be that he/she wants to give some of the more senior cadets the opportunity to prove and develop themselves to ensure that you continue to have a pro-active NCO team once the current NCOs start to leave/age out.
To be frank why should the CO care what you think about the number of NCOs? When I was a CWO I had a say in who, but wouldn’t have questioned how many or the final decision, as it wasn’t my place to do this. I had to work with them and do the best job to bring them on, regardless of my personal opinion.
As MRAR says a sqn cdr looks longer term. We as staff know that cadets will leave and unless you have a longer term plan and promote on a regular basis you could end up with too few NCOs due to leavers, which then means you run light, which puts a lot more pressure on those remaining (which can make them leave) and this then has the potential to create a gap of older and younger, rather than a succession.
Don’t get overly concerned about teams as they change. If you don’t feel able to accept and bring on new blood then maybe your time in the Corps is coming to an end, because as staff (if that’s where you see yourself) seeiing the potential and bringing cadets on is an expected part of the job, without prejudice.
I think you should bear in mind that you have no idea what went on when you were first being talked about as a potential NCO, like you now are seemingly questioning why people should be promoted, someone could have been questioning your promotion 4 or so years ago.
I’m in a similar situation but i’ve been convinced the more the better, if you have the cadets that are ready for promotion (and they’ve been there for a while) then they may consider leaving, plus if you give them a while to be Cpls then they’ll go on to be better SNCOs too.
Just curious, why do flight staff cadets not count towards the NCO strength of a sqn?
Agree with the above. You can always find jobs and roles for NCOs if you have the competent personnel to promote - also goes for promoting to the higher ranks; I’d much rather have sgt-quality cadets ranked as sgts but doing a cpl’s job than hold back sgt-quality cadets as cpl because it’s felt that corporals are needed (I have had a unit with four sergeants as the entire NCO team and it worked fine).
GHE2 comes across rather blunt as usual, but does have a valid point. As an OC I’d be very interested in a senior cadet’s opinion of potential NCOs, particularly in light of things that they may have seen (good or bad) when I’ve not been present - I’d be rather less interested in their opinion on the higher-level decisions about running the squadron.
the others are, imv, correct - not only does the OC need to be looking at a 5 year pipeline of NCO’s, but he understands that not everyone who looks like a promising young NCO turns into one when you put stripes on them. some are not just useless, but utter chods…
he also understands that the just-been-promoted Sgt you’re all grooming to be the next-but-two CWO might up sticks and move to the other end of the country just because their parents need to pay the mortgage.
having lots of Cpl’s is no bad thing - not only does it provoke a bit of competition between them, it makes it easier to ‘carry’ the one or two who turn out to be sub par. it allows you to make better decisions about moving people to SNCO positions rather than being stuck with very few options.
we found, in a Sqn of 45 or so, that we could have 8 or so Cpl’s - 4 section cdr’s, and 4 section 2ic’s who also doubled up as the training team; they trained the recruit intakes, they ran the stores (under an SNCO), and they had a particular responsibility to be the Sqn’s SME’s on IET. we’d swap the section cdr’s and 2ic’s around every 6 months or so to give then all experience of different ends of the JNCO job, and because it was made clear that all the Cpl’s were equal, they just did different jobs, they weren’t any noses put out of joint.
the 8 JNCO’s went to 3 or 4 Sgt’s (a mix between young thrusters and old women moved out of the way…) and then to two FS/CWO.
I care about the NCOs to the end that I’ve seen it grow over the last 4 years so It’s in my best interest to ensure it continues to prosper. To be clear I haven’t “questioned” my CO final decision… because he hasn’t made one.
Just because I’m a CWO and not a member of adult staff, that certainly doesn’t mean that I don’t look in the “longer term”. You use the words “We as staff”… as a CWO I work extremely closely with the staff thus sharing their perspective of plans for the future, I get the impression that you think that just because I’m a cadet albeit a very senior one; that I can’t look plan for the long term, I am well aware of the negative effects of promoting too few NCOs on the squadron.
Right, “Don’t get overly concerned about teams as they change”… I cannot disagree more. The squadron generally needs to produce the best NCO team possible, Its not that I’m “overly concerned”… just that I care a lot… I pride myself on it!
When I was being talked about as a potential NCO was yeeeears ago, After such a long time I have gained the experience and knowledge of NCO qualities to state why I think someone should or shouldn’t get promoted, I see things the staff don’t see and vice versa… the staff don’t always see exactly what the NCOs are like from their office desk. To build on that, I’ve was part on the Directing Staff for the most recent INCO course whereby two of our potential NCOs attended… I even assessed one of their presentations… So my opinion is definitely valid and worthwhile listening too.
Lastly, I couldn’t care less what people said about me, that was 4 years ago…
My dear Vents, you say that you have not questioned the decision of your CO because they have yet to make one. However in starting this thread you are questioning their thought process and therefore their decision in advance of it being made should it be the ‘wrong answer’.
Might I remind you that as a cadet, and as you say a senior one, it is not your train set and it is your OCs perogative to decide who they want as an NCO. Including an CWO in the discussion is a courtesy and not a necessity, maybe wait before the decision before launching of on one again?
A team is not a static entity. Teams change all the time as a result of changes in people and or their personal circumstances, your comment suggests to me that you don’t understand this and see a team as a fixed group Cadets in particular go through enormous changes due purely to the fact they are teenagers, throw in pressures of school and or family changes and this can turn them on their heads. As a result the “team” changes all the time. This applies equally to staff, although for largely different reasons. As team leader you should be aware of these things and make allowances accordingly.
I read your concern as being more to do with cadets being promoted and it upsetting things. Well as the senior cadet NCO, it’s your job to ensure they are given the support etc to make them feel as those they belong, regardless of any personal feelings you may have. Just think give it 12-18 months maximum and it won’t be your direct concern, as you leave the Corps or move into staff. I also get a sense that the group of NCOs you have have been more or less static. You say that you assist and assess on JNCO courses, if this is true in its truest sense and you’re not one of these cadet NCOs I’ve seen assisting on these courses who are more concerned with how they come across swanning around like the God’s gift and seeking opportunities to brown nose, then your squadron should have some of the best potential NCOs around, as you bring this experience and knowledge “home” so to speak.
Don’t kid yourself about having the ability to look at the longer term, the very nature of your post would suggest otherwise. Long term for me, means looking at them from day one and seeing how they develop.
Just for perspective you weren’t first talked about as an NCO yeeeears ago, it was 4, at most 5 years ago, (dependent on when you joined) which isn’t yeeeears. My first promotion, (let alone being discussed a potential) as a cadet was yeeeears ago, highlighted by the fact that in our most recent intake, one set of parents weren’t born when I joined the ATC.
Although if a CWO’s (or any other person’s) opinion and input is being sought regarding the shape and structure of the future team, as it would seem to be in this case, then the CWO should not only be able to able to put forward their views but should be able to justify them and to put forward supporting arguments for them.
We seek the opinions of our NCOs on promotions and the higher the rank the deeper the discussions can go. A list of names is not particularly useful other than to confirm opinions already formed by the OC. A more detailed response builds a better picture and that is surely the main purpose of inviting opinions in the first place. In that regard I do not see an issue with discussing the size or structure of the team but beware of basing the argument on rigidly following the established scale, as that does not always work in the real world.
You said that that “Including an CWO in the discussion is a courtesy”. While this is true I’d suggest that it should be a courtesy which is always extended except in extreme circumstances. Any OC who does not seek the input of their staff and senior NCOs in the promotion of their subordinates is not being a particularly good OC in my view.
It’s interestng to get cadet NCO’s perspective as they aren’t always objective in those they opine in favour of. I watch the social dynamic on the sqn before asking opinions and I sit there listening saying nothing and 9/10 my hunch/suspicion is correct, as the mates / popular ones are given the plaudits while those less favoured are poo pooed. But then with a number of years under my belt, I have the confidence in my own decision making to not get over awed and go against my gut feeling.
Those opinions are more likely to be based on working quite closely with someone for a reasonable period of time and could be well deserved. Cadets of any rank are often more likely to see a different side to those in the running for promotion than some staff might and that perspective is useful.
I can certainly see both sides to this, and appreciate both, because I have been that CWO, and that commanding officer!
This is actually a healthy debate to be having on the unit, becuase the OC should be seeking to understand the dynamic on the unit within the NCO team (the one that they will try not to let staff see!) and the CWO should be learning about the longer term view, and wider factors that have yet to be exposed to them.
I would point out to the OP however, that you need to remember your “Many years” of cadet experience, whilst important to you, tend to pale slightly compared to staff who were running Squadrons before you were born! Length of experience is relative!
I hope you continue to put your case appropriately, as it could well influence decision making. I also hope your OC will explain enough of his reasining for you to see why he makes the decisions he does, because one day you could be on his side of the table, dealing with the next generation of cadet sat where you are now.
I always ask for my NCO team’s input. It doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll promote the people they want me to, but it’s interesting to hear their reasons for wanting people to be promoted and good to have their input.
There’s a fine balance which is what this thread is getting at. Any OC worth a damn will listen to everyone in the staff and NCO teams about promotions, but ultimately it’s their decision and they are the ones that will have to deal with the power trips and it’s their neck on the line if it goes wrong.
[quote=“mike whiskey” post=22309]
I would point out to the OP however, that you need to remember your “Many years” of cadet experience, whilst important to you, tend to pale slightly compared to staff who were running Squadrons before you were born! Length of experience is relative!
MW[/quote]
I understand that, However my CO is extremely young; 23 I think and has been CO for 18 months