RAM to RSD? Process on SMS for approvals

The RSD template has signature boxes for RAU, RCO and SPO as part of the approvals.
If we are submitting these by SMS does this mean that for each RSD:

  1. RAU/RCO wet sign
  2. Scan RSD and attach to SMS
  3. SPO prints RSD
  4. SPO wet signs RSD
  5. SPO scans and re attaches to SMS (can you do that?) and approves SMS
  6. RAU/RCO prints RSD for shoot (as per normal this bit)

Now since I have to do an RSD for every parade night as I do not know 2 weeks in advance if I will have all the staff etc needed that is going to be a lot of trees dying in vain
Anyone know what the accepted procedure for this is as I can see the SPOs being drowned in printing and scanning otherwise - or have I missed a brief on this somewhere

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We are passing them around to signatories by email (or manually, if practicable) then uploading the final version to SMS.

As before, it can be prepared with staffing as “best guess”, amending and signing a copy on the day. I believe that amended copy can be uploaded as part of the post-activity process.

Its the 3 signature boxes that are the problem for me - the old gotcha if someone has an incident and a piece of paper does not have a monika on it.
It is still a lot of printing and signing if doing by email

The joys of a distributed organisation with no proper collaboration tools/process
As fast as we develop a process to save time (SMS can save time :face_with_hand_over_mouth:) we are forced to adopt a practice designed for our parent services that does not work in our distributed model

I’m not saying that the RSD system isn’t a total crotch-ache, designed for full-time staff sitting in adjacent offices who can sign stuff easily and not really fit for how we work here.

Perhaps we should get @james_elliot to build an RSD template into the shooting SMS application - that way the SMS audit trail an be printed on the final RSD when you print for the shoot

Only problem is every time they change the template we would need an SMS modification

you mean, change the entire mechanism, process, name, …


The RSD is absolute :poop: and far inferior to a RAM.

So far I have just been putting my electronic signature on and uploading it and then sending it to the SPO via SMS. If he wants to then download it and do stuff he can. (As long as SMS goes Green before the shoot it’s his responsibility).

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I actually prefer the RSD to the RAM, just not the requirement for a wet signature!

Could be worse you could be dealing with DIO and they want wet signatures on the stuff you submit to them in certain areas.

Ultimately the RSD needs to be signed by the RCO and SPO, the question I’ve posed is if there is a precedent for this to be wet signature or if digital will do.

Edit to add CTR says ‘Original Signature’ and it’s up to the RAU:
"2-33. On all DIO controlled estates and on other ranges and training areas where Range Orders dictate, the RSD, RASP or EASP will require approval from the RAU for planning purposes this should be at least 15 days before the start of the activity, all written instructions must have the original signature when submitted to the RAU. Planning officers are to determine time constraints on or before the Recce . "

Would be interesting to hear your justification of this. The RSD has some clarifications in it that were long time pending for the RAM and actually contains mostly the same information.

So is that a pukka digital signature or just a scan or ‘font’ signature

RSD?? A change to the RAM??

Had nothing down the CoC!!

A new version of CTR was released and it is the qualification owners responsibility to ensure they are current in their qual, an IBN went out about the new CTR. The SPO should also be checking you are submitting suitable documents as part of their checks.

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That is my name followed by “signed electronically” my understanding is that by then sending it via a pukka secure method (either an individual corporate email or SMS) it should be sufficient as it’s auditable that it came from me. (If that system is good enough for the Criminals Justice System it should be good enough for the Air Cadets!).

It isn’t the Air Cadets who require it, it is the army/SASC/MOD who are apparently very much expecting a real signature.

It’s a huge admin faff - although I don’t mind the RSD so much as now I don’t have to list the “Tolstoy War & Peace” range commands anymore.

It take much longer for approval (regardless of the efficiency of your Wg Shoot Off) as now you have to send the RSD to them, for pre-approval (+ “wet” signature), return back to you, then to be added to SMS event, & finally the Wg Shoot Off’s approval again.

This is very inefficient & shows that we are always having to play the Army’s tune (as they control shooting). Confirming availability of staff in advance is not always feasible, & as for auth’ing / running a shooting event on the same day (weather forecast bad, or staff availability not available for primary trg schedule), this is impossible. Otherwise, I have to load up “maybe” events in advance = a potential waste of my time & that of the Wg Shoot Off.

It’s also totally over the top for air rifle ranges - & within that, so is the requirement for an ammunition orderly to control / issue lead pellets!! :rage:

Is that in reference to your conducting notes which have to be present with your RSD at time of approval?

So does that mean that you never sent your RAM (as was) to your Wg Sho/SPO?

And your point being?

Although sometimes staff dropping out can be annoying, the RSD can be changed on the day as long as SPO is made aware! The whole area above is poor planning and lack of foresight - Flexibility is the key.

All Ranges are to be run in the same way, the ammo NCO and medic can be the same person on a static range. So if the medic is there and correctly qualified why don’t they issue your ammo requirements.

OK, I’ll bite.

Yes to all the RSD / RAM parameters.

We are talking about an indoor 5.5 air rifle range here, not a field firing area. The Army (SSC) clearly see all single shot bolt-action rifles as a wpns of war, hence they work to over-controlled / over-specified requirements. This is especially so for air rifle.

Typically, we run most CLF shooting on a parade evening; the first aid / ammo orderly requirements could easily be relaxed. As with any range, as long as as the first aid person is readily available (for example in a staff office 5m away from our hall), then that is permissible - & that person could then be productive for a parade evening.

A huge faff is having to have someone available to issue INERT lead pellets. No-one can say that is not an exercise in futility! Who is going to steal lead pellets from the “ammo table” should the RCO (heresy, heresy) be approved to put out ammunition??

Flexibility - unlike the Army where the SPO would normally be available, this is not always the case for CFAV SPOs who generally have a full-time job to run; I might not know about lack of staff availability until about 15 mins before shooting is planned on an evening. I certainly cannot get hold of the SPO at that short notice. Shooting cancelled.

Similarly, if an activity cannot go ahead at very short notice, I could get a range ready to rock in 15 mins, but there is no way i can submit an RSD for "wet signature / get it returned / action Bader SMS approval / get final Wg approval (normally SPO of course) within 3 days as a bare minimum - & that assumes full availability in the approval chain (& of course, my availability to cobble together the admin faff). Realistically, I try to allow a week. Flexibility here = zero. The other option is to pre-submit all the nause for EVERY parade evening in case the range is required; guess what the SPO would say to that?

All this for air rifle - the Scouts manage with an A4 page of guidance; I don’t recall reading in the media about Scouts being decimated on their air rifle ranges…

Why do we make things so difficult?? This could easily be made simpler, less restrictive but still stay safe. A “standing” RSD for say a 3 month period for basic air rifle CLF would really help, but hey, let’s keep things as obstructive as possible.


Surely the 6 Ps come to mine, you don’t turn up on a parade night without all your key people being present. They should give you more notice than that!!

In a perfect, non-cadet world, that might be the case. Taking account all circumstances for timings, places of work for our CFAVs, personal / home aspects, etc, you can plan to eternity, but someone might not be available at very short notice.

A large portion of my staff work in jobs where if you have to stay late you have to stay late. If I get a prisoner in at thirty minutes before finish time, guess what I don’t finish on time.

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