As mentioned in the wedgewood/ties thread, I’ve just had a look at the newest AP1358 (not the ACO “C” version, I mean the RAF and it’s active reserves one, 6th Ed to AL18, taken from the main public raf.mod.uk website):
[/quote]
So: does this actually mean that for the first time ever, regular RAF and active reserves Officers and ORs can wear ACO gliding brevets, from previous service, in uniform?
And by ironic omission (resulting from AP1358C) the only Air Force personnel not so entitled would be ATC WOs and SNCOs (with previous Cadet or CGI qualification brevets).
Or is this an over-generous interp of the dress regulation?
In other news, 2* Officers and above are now allowed to wear forage caps in MTP.
Also, interesting to see all the updated detailed dress regulations for RAFVR(UAS)… :blink:
Yes, indeed, but I am sure the wearing of ‘staff’ brevets obtained through ACO service (either via ‘previous’, or as an SGI, ie a Service (non-established) Gliding Instructor) was previously not allowed on RAF uniform for regular RAF (or for RAuxAF or mobilised/FTRS RAFR).
It was only permitted for RAFVR(T)…(in practice, this originally also was extended to RAFVR(GD), as I used to occasionally see old-school pre-97 RAFVR Offrs wearing gliding instructor brevets).
What is a “1 EFTS Glider Pilot” brevet?
Is it different from this…
Or might it be a adaptation of this…(which I seem to remember hearing somewhere had been withdrawn?)
This has been around for a very long time (years?) that regulars can wear the glider pilot and Gliding Instructor badge. (The same as VR(T) wear) as can be hinted at by it being called the 1EFTS glider badge, that being the first organisation the glider fleet was subsumed into before 3FTS and now 2FTS.
The glider badge (With crown) is issued to all instructors B2 through A1*
The glider badge (Without crown) is issued to all grade 1 pilots. There is however some debate and little guidance on if it should be issued to grade 2 pilots.
Really? That long? If so, why did earlier (not that old) versions of AP1358 specifically not allow it? Unless I’m suffering a ‘senior timeslip moment’…
Also: I do remember speaking with a regular Wg Cdr (an OC of a Stn Eng Wg) who was also an SI / SGI (say within the last 18 months/ 2yrs or so), and he bemoaned the fact that he was unable to wear his gliding instructor wings on anything other than his flying kit, and then only unofficially, whilst on VGS duty.
[quote=“tingger”]
(The same as VR(T) wear) as can be hinted at by it being called the 1EFTS glider badge, that being the first organisation the glider fleet was subsumed into before 3FTS and now 2FTS.[/quote]
Goodo, thanks for confirmation.
[quote=“tingger”]The glider badge (With crown) is issued to all instructors B2 through A1*[/quote] Thanks also, appreciated.
I wonder if it’s that uncertainty that I’m remembering wrongly as a withdrawal? So it is still issued?
wilf_san
EDIT…
Aha…AP1358 Chapter 7 was AL13-ed in Mar 2010. So I’m wrong, it’s been permitted for ages.
Therefore, if I had that conversation say 2 yrs ago, and it took a couple of years for AL13 to become ‘generally known’ within the regular service…timeslip.
I might have got a little confused with the date of B2 instructors being issued the crown version.
However the IBN is on Bader and it’s been in since 24 Mar this year. It only allows the QGI (crowned brevet) to be worn and at this date 1EFTS had long been absorbed by 2FTS looks like standard joined up writing of orders.
On that note (and apologies for the thread drift wilf), I’ve just read the section which outlines APOs should wear the Plt Off braid across a white band…I’m sure this is the old way of doing things, before the days when APOs were actually given commissions? If it is the new regs, no one’s told us :unsure:
Also, what the hell does this mean:
:blink:
You’re lucky if my t-shirt is ironed when I’m in uni, let alone my Converse shoes which have seen better days…
[quote=“Stand Out” ]
On that note (and apologies for the thread drift wilf), I’ve just read the section which outlines APOs should wear the Plt Off braid across a white band…I’m sure this is the old way of doing things, before the days when APOs were actually given commissions? If it is the new regs, no one’s told us :unsure: [/quote]
I always originally remember seeing (rare) UAS APOs just simply wearing the rank and uniform of RAF Plt Offs. No VR collar titles/rank branch identifiers were worn (unlike their RAFVR(GD) brethren, who did wear them, properly/correctly, for the exact half-century 1947-97).
The reason for the whole RAFVR(UAS) APO cadre failing to (re-)adopt brass VRs after the infamous 1943 AMO was revoked may be down to the almost-forgotten post-war realignment of the entire UAS out of the ATC (yes, that’s true, they were actually part of the Corps at that time…read the small print in the old Royal Warrant). Am extremely pleased the badging’s been sorted at last!!
The wearing of Plt Off braid on top of white slides did happen, but I strongly suspect it originally >wasn’t< so worn by UAS APOs…I’ve a suspicion it may have had it’s origins upon the shoulders of regular IOT Acting Plt Offs outwith Cranwell (so, prior to the current streamlined OASC process at RAFC, and possibly way back in the days of Biggin Hill/ OCTU Henlow commissioning streams…or even perhaps re-adopted from use first at the Officer School WRAF Hawkinge?)
[quote=“Stand Out”]Also, what the hell does this mean:
That’s been in AP1358 for a long time…I think that it’s attempting to ensure that if a UAS APO or a classic sponsored/bursar undergraduate Acting Plt Off (back in the days before the now-standard affiliation to the UAS of sponsored undergraduate ‘groundies’ Eng/Med/Dent/Law) was attending as a visiting OCdt down at ‘old Cranwell’, the Commandant could whip their Plt Off braid from them for the duration of that particular RAFC course (making them non-Acting within the bounds of the College) and replace it with IOT-style formation-coloured OCdt white tabs…conversely, when back at ‘home Uni’ their Plt Off braid went back up (whether UAS APO or sponsored singletons). Same with the white band around the cap mohair: worn at RAFC, not worn back at own Sqn. This combination should appear familiar within another certain branch of the RAFVR…
Happy to be wrong with the above interpretation, but I reckon it’s fairly close (any takers for alternative info?)
wilf_san
ps when you say that UAS APOs previously weren’t originally commissioned at all, I am wondering what you mean. They certainly weren’t commissioned into the regular RAF… I always believed they were (and are) commissioned into the RAFVR, acting in rank. I do concede though that they either aren’t Gazetted at all, or are so rare it just looks that way. Is it your understanding that they are (effectively) [I]‘acting’[/I] Acting Pilot Officers? Their time in the VR is certainly counted within JPA (or was, originally, by PMC) towards their personal number of years served…
A guy on IOT with me (previously a regular technical trade FS) was given an acting commission (Acting Plt Off) while assigned to a teaching post at Cranfield. He then reverted to Officer Cadet during his time with me on IOT and then graduated as a Flt Lt.
He didn’t wear white tape while an Acting Plt Off though (and neither did I after grad).
[quote=“wilf_san” post=22713][quote=“Stand Out” ]
On that note (and apologies for the thread drift wilf), I’ve just read the section which outlines APOs should wear the Plt Off braid across a white band…I’m sure this is the old way of doing things, before the days when APOs were actually given commissions? If it is the new regs, no one’s told us :unsure: [/quote]
I always originally remember seeing (rare) UAS APOs just simply wearing the rank and uniform of RAF Plt Offs. No VR collar titles/rank branch identifiers were worn (unlike their RAFVR(GD) brethren, who did wear them, properly/correctly, for the exact half-century 1947-97).
The reason for the whole RAFVR(UAS) APO cadre failing to (re-)adopt brass VRs after the infamous 1943 AMO was revoked may be down to the almost-forgotten post-war realignment of the entire UAS out of the ATC (yes, that’s true, they were actually part of the Corps at that time…read the small print in the old Royal Warrant). Am extremely pleased the badging’s been sorted at last!!
The wearing of Plt Off braid on top of white slides did happen, but I strongly suspect it originally >wasn’t< so worn by UAS APOs…I’ve a suspicion it may have had it’s origins upon the shoulders of regular IOT Acting Plt Offs outwith Cranwell (so, prior to the current streamlined OASC process at RAFC, and possibly way back in the days of Biggin Hill/ OCTU Henlow commissioning streams…or even perhaps re-adopted from use first at the Officer School WRAF Hawkinge?) [/quote]
I suppose you’re right in saying UAS APOs are rare, in the latest Gazette there’s 45 listed! I assure you brass VR pins are worn by all APOs in all dresses of uniform (apart from the flying suit, where tabs with an embroidered VR are issued), and I was always under the impression about six or seven years ago it used to be the case where Plt Off braids were worn over a white tab. This is no longer the case.
Ah, that would make sense. Although I can’t think of any time when this may realistically occur in the modern day where APOs don’t necessarily have bursaries. Thank God, I enjoy wearing my trackies for uni lectures…
I was always under the impression previously that APOs weren’t actually given commissions, but I may be wrong. Nowadays, the UAS APO course is run by OACTU and you’re presented with a commissioning scroll upon completion (surprisingly, not everyone does pass :dry: ). And indeed they are Gazetted, here’s this year’s bunch: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/60978/supplement/17022
The OACTU course has only been running four or five years, and I thought before then commissions weren’t actually given, but as I say, I’m probably wrong.
The Plt Off braid over white tabs seemed to be a local variation, and quite a recent one - possibly in line with the modern RAFC Cranwell OACTU rank slides. None of the Sqns I’ve served on have done this as standard, apart from the brief period where it seemed to be regulation - which was daft; the VR pins and embroidery is a far more elegant solution. After all, these are the most promising personnel on each UAS, and should wear the RAF uniform and commission commensurate to the level of responsibility they’ve been given. Personally I found the gash UASs who allowed their personnel to waltz around in No1 SD hats sans white band or berets sans white disk more annoying.
[quote]I was always under the impression previously that APOs weren’t actually given commissions, but I may be wrong. Nowadays, the UAS APO course is run by OACTU and you’re presented with a commissioning scroll upon completion (surprisingly, not everyone does pass :dry: ). And indeed they are Gazetted, here’s this year’s bunch: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/60978/supplement/17022
The OACTU course has only been running four or five years, and I thought before then commissions weren’t actually given, but as I say, I’m probably wrong.[/quote]
Commissions have been given for as long as I can remember. However, as you correctly state, you now must complete the OACTU UAS APO Cse (originally offered from the spare capacity post SDSR) to be awarded the commission. If you don’t complete it, be it failing the OACTU fitness test, medical impediments, or being rubbish, you don’t become an APO. I know one very capable chap (now a regular Officer) who was medically unfit, so he served as an Off Cdt Senior Student on the UAS.
Hi, appreciate this is bumping a very old thread but is anyone able to point me in the direction of this IBN or current guidance on Gliding Brevet entitlements?
Although your quoted source would seem to disagree with you…
Gliding Instructor Badges
0741. Qualified RAF glider pilots and gliding instructors are to wear the 1 EFTS ‘Glider Pilot’ or ‘Gliding Instructor’ brevet badge as appropriate, on
the No 1 SD jacket, the jersey and on the flying overalls. The gliding badges are to be positioned above the left-hand breast pocket. A miniature
version of this badge (half size and gold embroidered on blue/grey material) should be worn by qualified personnel on No 5 and 8 SD, positioned
on the left lapel with the top of the centre of the badge 1½" (3.8 cm) below the inner end of the collar step opening.
However this doesn’t answer my question, not knowing anything about gliding qualifications I am aware at some point that those entitled to wear the Glider Pilot brevet badge were then entitled to wear the Gliding Instructor brevet badge.
What I am trying to find out is whether someone should in fact be wearing the Gliding Instructor brevet badge but without knowing what the changes were I’m unable to have a sensible conversation with them about it.
Yes lots of official publications disagree - hence the smiley as it’s a current issue being sorted by the Flying Branch sponsor!
To wear the gliding badge with crown you had to be a B cat instructor. When the categories changed (about 2010 I think) to come in line with the rest of the RAF, C cat became B2 and I think they got the crown as well then.
topical debate)