I’m sure I’ve got at least one kicking about in stores… They are the same as the CI badges but without the letters “CI”.
I seem to remember there being a very short period ages ago where ATC officers wore the ATC crest rather than VR(T) pins but can’t find where I read that
I have seen those too but I’m sure it was what was worn prior to VR(T) in the 1940s
The obvious reason as to “why not?” is because if RAFAC pins were nowadays permitted to be worn just through the rank-braid on the shoulders of greatcoats, then that’d be the simple solution for formation identifiers in all orders of dress that do not have fixed lapels.
We all know that isn’t the case, hence the official embroidered pattern approach at the shoulder being the likely true regulation requirement (the suggestion regarding pins through non-existent lapels on greatcoats must’ve been made both in haste & error).
(Don’t get mislead by the EIIR cyphers worn by ADCs: that’s confusing the issue. They get worn on shoulder-boards even on orders of dress that don’t usually have epaulettes, ie No1s/No5s)
ALL dress regulations for the RAF’s reserve & auxiliary forces (and by extension, Cadets) have followed the general traditions and dress standards as set for the RAuxAF- this is to be expected, with the AAF/RAuxAF being the senior formation. This was explicitly-stated in QRs for the RAF, and in earlier editions of AP1358. Certainly that never foresaw a future within which the RAuxAF ceased to wear any formation identifiers at all (but since we all now live in a brave new world with a tiny /shrinking RAF &the wagons circled, anything’s possible )
That’s correct. When the Training branch of the RAFVR was raised in 1940, just conventional VR pins were worn on the lapels of No1 SDs (and through the braid on greatcoat shoulders) with a cloth badge showing the encircled letters ‘A.T.C’ at the wrist, worn above the rank-braid on No1s.
Following the 1947 reconstitution of the RAF’s auxiliary & reserve forces, the cloth badges were withdrawn, and for a brief-and-unpopular period of time, VRT Offrs wore a gilt enscrolled ATC crest instead of the classic VR-only pins (as well as the cloth arm badges). These were rapidly-replaced by the familiar VRT pins we now rarely see in the wild.
In our current uniform markings mode, I can’t see any real way in which a non-embroidered/pins-only solution would be considered acceptable by TPTB.
As I said, if it was going to be that easy (ie the way that No1s&5s were sorted by a simple pin-swap) why on earth wasn’t that solution applied to ALL orders of dress? Thus saving all the challenges of supply/embroidered letter-sizes/colours of cloth backing/length&shape of rank-slides &etc
I think there’s a strong corporate desire for us NOT to ever look as unbranded as our comrades in the Alternative Cadet Force…apart from in dress uniforms, when force identification is just a little bit easier even for the hard-of-thinking.
If the Great British Public looked at a picture of an ACF Adult Sgt Instructor wearing MTP and an AAC beret…then compared that with a picture of an RAFAC ASgt wearing No3 MTPs…and the only subjective difference they could detect was a two tiny letter variation on brass pins: that just isn’t going to go down well.
One of the motivations was the FOD risk, which led to VGS instructors not wearing VRT pins and rather enjoying that fact…
Which is ironic, given the sole survivors of the RAFVR(T) are now pilots! Though most AEF pilots I know have embroidered VRT on their rank braid, which always made me wonder why the glider pilots didn’t.
I don’t know about anyone else, but my understanding was that the RAFAC pins were always intended to go through the collar, not the lapel (ie above the notches). This would solve the issue of closing the top, and is the same as when worn with no1s. I can’t for the life of me remember where I first heard that, however you’ll notice the quote from another one of the greatcoat threads suggesting much the same - from a brief search on here, it’s the first mention of pins on the collar I could find.
You are quite correct. Though the terms are often used interchangeably because the average person may not know the difference between the lapel and the collar.
We certainly could wear pins through the collar of greatcoats but it’s not the traditionally correct place for them.
That being said, RAFAC pins on the sleeves (the correct place for non-comm) are not particularly comfortable because of the butterfly clasps and pins were never correct for us anyway.
I can’t imagine HQAC having any particular desire to create RAFAC cloth badges for greatcoats so no doubt we’ll stick with the pins - which therefore will likely have to go on the collar.
As for officers… They have no other location to wear rank except on the shoulder straps so they’ll either have to wear their embroidered rank slides like they do with other modes (which I reckon will look poor over the heavy straps of a greatcoat) or they’ll have to wear rank braid stitched on directly (that would definitely look better) and pins - which will probably be worn in the same incorrect location as for WO/SNCO - on the collar.
Someone needs to make an actual decision though and stick it in 1358C.
HQAC - no
But a certain retailer …
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Oh yeah, they’d be all over it…
But it seems that HQAC (quite rightly) are not prepared to start saying “you MUST wear these and we can’t afford to supply them so buy your own”.
No doubt that is the crux of the delay in all WOs moving to the Royal Arms. There are plenty of self-purchase options out there but it wouldn’t be right for them to say “Okay Warrant Officers… Go buy your own now or otherwise hang around wearing the old Crowns until such time as we can afford to provide you with rank insignia”.
One could argue that for a private purchase item like a greatcoat they could mandate a private purchase embroidered RAFAC badge - I’d have no problem with that idea in specific cases like this - but I seriously doubt they’d ever bother to do it.
Also, if they were going down the route of badging us “historically correctly” in greatcoats then they really should consider badging us historically correctly in No 1 as well… and that almost certainly would require them to provide the badges given that it’s virtually expected that WOs/SNCOs should have No 1 SD these days.
I don’t think those are CI pins, but they look awfully similar.
The one I recieved on my CI appointment back in 2015 had ‘CI’ above the the eagle. Those pictured do not, so no idea what badges they are.
Read upthread, I’ve explained. They are ATC crests, minus the astral crown. They were a highly-unpopular interim solution from c1947, pending the introduction of dedicated VRT pins. Somewhere I have the date / copy of the actual memos explaining the full reasoning behind the design of VRT pins, and an outline of the challenges in their introduction nearly 70yrs ago…if I can dig it out, I’ll share what it said (as a historical footnote)
A very good point, which I’d missed.
Well, insofar as cloth rocker/mudguard badges ‘RAF Air Cadets’ would really be another alternative for both Offrs and ORs…but awkward to do & more expensive. This was apparently also talked about in the context of No1s/No5s, but to be honest, that would really complicate things…pins are, and were, a simple and swift solution
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As always, a fountain of knowledge!
If you’re able to find the memos, that would be a good read
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There’s an answer on VoV:
Summarised: officers: jumper blue rank slides. ORs: complicated - you need to read - as it depends if they are loan pool (which can’t be hacked around or pinned) or your own.
Ah yes… The old “damage” myth.
Two tiny brass pins pushed through a heavy wool coat… These people really don’t understand how fabric works.
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This sounds vaguely terrible looking.
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It does.
If I ever had one, I’d go traditional and have pins through the braid. If people dont like it what are they going to do? Tell me to remove it?!
The coat will be off once I’m inside anyway!
You may be right, I couldn’t possibly comment. To be fair that is the default option even on MTP as they are then a free issue, though if people are going to buy a greatcoat they can probably buy rank slides, too.
I’m hoping @wilf_san comes up with a solution.
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My first thought upon glancing over that post was ‘MTP rank slides on a greatcoat.
I kind of want to mock that up now.
It’s the all new modern two-tone aesthetic
Ok so out of interest what was the answer to this ranking question on greatcoats?
Was it shoulder boards? Pins? Sewn on rank tape?
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