I do think that it’s important to bear in mind people’s time commitments, etc - but at the end of the day we do need to ensure the quality of our uniformed staff!
I think that a few regional training weekends - along with removing the timescale to complete - would be a fair compromise.
[quote=“Mike Bravo” post=13328]
Does anyone know the script for uniformed staff at overseas squadrons, do they need to travel to ATF or do they complete courses locally ?
MB[/quote]
I’d be interested to know the answer to this as well.
[quote=“MattB” post=13361]I do think that it’s important to bear in mind people’s time commitments, etc - but at the end of the day we do need to ensure the quality of our uniformed staff!
I think that a few regional training weekends - along with removing the timescale to complete - would be a fair compromise.[/quote]
Removing the timescale is poor, as you could have Off Cdts with a CFM. An extended period would be more suitable - 2 years to complete the training package. Also change CFM eligibility so that it doesn’t start until completion of relevant course at ATF.
[quote=“Mike Bravo” post=13328]
Does anyone know the script for uniformed staff at overseas squadrons, do they need to travel to ATF or do they complete courses locally ?[/quote]
The thing is, who would actually deliver it anywhere else? My guess is that they’d have to come to ATF as ATF are the only training establishment currently authorised to deliver SSIC and OIC. Other locations could be authorised, but why would they be? The alternative, if there were sufficient numbers, would be for ATF to do a course overseas, but I imagine that the locations of the Overseas Sqns and the lack of students to make a course viable wouldn’t make this a realistic option.
[quote=“themajor” post=13365][quote=“MattB” post=13361]I do think that it’s important to bear in mind people’s time commitments, etc - but at the end of the day we do need to ensure the quality of our uniformed staff!
I think that a few regional training weekends - along with removing the timescale to complete - would be a fair compromise.[/quote]
Removing the timescale is poor, as you could have Off Cdts with a CFM. An extended period would be more suitable - 2 years to complete the training package. Also change CFM eligibility so that it doesn’t start until completion of relevant course at ATF.[/quote]Yeah, but in my scheme everyone would be an aircraftman of some flavour until completing the relevant course at Cranditz.
instead of the ‘stick’ approach above (brilliant idea by the way - penalise a volunteer, make them feel like a second class citizen in an organisation crying out for staff: you wouldn’t work with Pprune and Nimrod at HQAC’s Morale and Retention desk would you?)…[/quote]
My comments above are very much specific to my personal experience. Had I been told that what I could partake in, contribute and/or claim for would be restricted until post ATF I would certainly have made a greater effort to attend sooner, as an active member of the Squadron and within the Wing (as a Cadet and then as CI) I would want to maintain the level of involvement and so would be pushing to get to ATF ASAP.
I can however see arguemtn in your point, with already various hurdles to get over placing more in the way isn’t going to help recruitment of adult staff. No youth organisation that is said to be over-staffed and the ATC is no exception. Although most Squadrons I know of have “healthy” Staff numbers, I cannot imagine any would turn down additional staff, uniformed or otherwise.
but to expand a little on what i was getting at, hurdles do offer a “filtering” to those who really want it.
Take a look at the process to join the RAF and it is clear it isn’t straightforward or simple, and even once joined up there is a lot of work to get through the 10 weeks of RTS or 6 months (?) of IOT.
I know we shouldn’t compare the RAF and ACO as the same, however a significant reason the RAF is what it is, is down to the personnel. All of which have jumped through the selection process, with significant hoops, hurdles and expectations to complete and then a significant program of basic training.
As a volunteer youth organisation we cannot employ the same system, however the point I am trying to make is if the process to become Staff/uniformed Staff is too easy we run the risk of losing the ethos of the Corps
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=13360][quote=“glass half empty 2”]
Maybe rather than a week away, there should be a series of weekend sessions done on a modular basis…[/quote]
[quote=“born middle aged” ]
I like the idea of completing a series of weekends covering a range of subjects which could be completed at wing level.[/quote]
I have advocated this approach for ages. There’s so much that we expect both of our SNCOs and Jnr Offs that a week simply isn’t enough. The existing course that our Reserve colleagues undertake at OACTU (ROIT) has this approach; compulsory modules over several months finished off with a residential period at Cranwell. We need to do a similar thing. However, every time that I’ve mentioned having pre SSIC or OIC weekend modules or self-study/distance learning elements, it’s been challenged with the usual ‘we’re volunteers’ and ‘we don’t have the time’ comments.[/quote]
Completely agree with the proposal - but lets make sure whatever is put in place covers all (in the case of the VR(T)) Officers across the ACO. I am specifically talking about our colleagues in the CCF who attend OIC with in some cases (personally witnessed) little more than having “expressed an interest in aviation to the Head” and less than an hours drill under their belt.
Not having a go at the CCF Officers - the fault lies with their CoC. In comparison ‘ATC’ Staff have seemingly loads of experience and ‘checks’ under their belt.
The point I am making is that you cannot have one rule for one and one rule for another - as we currently do.
I’d be interested to know what the driving force behind the policy is.
Has this policy been put in place to weed out those who get appointed and then find every excuse to avoid attending ATF (and arguably shouldn’t be wearing the uniform if that is their attitude), yet strut around happily in uniform and are potentially going around in an uninformed manner potentially causing embarrassment to themselves or the Corps
or
is this to capture those being appointed to attend ATF ASAP due to an number (deemed too high by someone at HQAC) slipping by through the net /waiting too long?
ie is it to get rid of the dead weight/wanna be/walts who enjoy wearing uniform too much or encourage Staff to step up the mark and accept the responsibility of the uniform?
And as such the approach needs to match it.
If it is to weed out the lazy, then I agree to the termination of appointment after twelve months, and arguably see no reason not to add to the route to uniform/ATF, or place restrictions upon what can be done until after ATF as it will separate those without the right attitude sooner
If however it is to encourage Staff to attend ATF with minimal delay then the process between appointment and ATF needs to be simpler, perhaps selecting a date to attend at the appointment interview. “Congratulation Mr Bloggs, we approve of your application for commission, you were offered the dates of potential ATF courses you can attend as part of your JIs for this interview, had today been successful, please now select three dates so we can start the process”
Or as someone suggested completing some of the course material on a local level over weekend courses
In my experience, it is up to the individual to sort out their ATF course and only when nothing has been done approaching/after 12 months has Wing got involved, the above mentioned case a prime example – there simply hasn’t been any encouragement or support to get to ATF quickly from a Wing or even higher level. The white tabs I suspect help, if only to get rid of the “sigma” of not being seen as “full staff”
Some employers require annual leave to be requested during the previous calendar year. For example, my own employer (a very large national organisation) allows one full week to be taken in the Spring, a fortnight in the Summer and a week in the Autumn/Winter. These leave requests must be submitted in the prior September and are subject to wrangling if other colleagues want the same weeks (we’re shift-workers and all the shits must be covered).
Additional annual leave may be taken outside these booked blocks, but it will not be guaranteed by my employer until the weekly roster is published on the Thursday prior to that week.
So for the sake of argument, let’s say I was joining now…
I was originally appointed in November, so if I was appointed again as a newly-minted Officer Cadet now, it would be after my annual leave request submission date for 2014. If none of my requested leave dates correspond with an available OIC week, I would be absolutely unable to attend a course in 2014. I could try to book ad hoc leave for one of the available courses, but this leave would not be confirmed until the Thursday before I started the course, meaning that I might have to cancel at last minute and hack everyone off from HQAC to my CO and everyone in between.
That would not be my fault and it would be manifestly unfair of the ACO to dismiss a member of staff for being trapped in this situation.
Whatever happened to the old mantra ‘Flexibility is the Key to Air Power’?
perhaps we should return to first principles: does the SCNO course at ATF produce a better SNCO than the previous arrangement, and just as importantly, does it produce a better member of staff for a Sqn than the previous arrangement?
only, i’d suggest, if the answer to both those questions is ‘yes’ should the ACO be looking to make SSIC both more accessable and less avoidable…
i’m still of the novel view that people should not be appointed to carry out a role until they have both been trained and tested for their competance in that role - and for that reason i see no point whatsoever in the Aircraftsman (ATC) rank/grade/appointment, because soon enough someone will come along and say that people shouldn’t be dressed as Aircraftsman (ATC) without having done some training to carry out that role, even if its meant to be a purely holding/training role and suggesting that some new, lower rank be created for those undertaking the AC (ATC) training…
far easier to appoint people as CI’s and have them do their SNCO training, both local and at ATF, as CI’s. then, when its completed they can be appointed as SNCO (ATC).
I didn’t think the process of getting booked onto an ATF course was onerous. The course dates are published, I think I just asked Wing what the availability was on upcoming course then said which one I wanted to be booked onto.
I appreciate some jobs have more restrictions on when staff can take a week off, if you work such a job the onus is on you to communicate that difficulty and book yourself on the first course you can. I would hope that HQAC would be accommodating to anyone in this position who was pro-active in communicating the particular difficulties of their situation.
This 12 month requirement is not new and I think was put in writing, but certainly advised to me, when I was commissioned.
On my IOC there were other on the course had been commissioned for 2 years, finished the course and put on Fg Off tapes the next day.
So I have a modicum of sympathy for someone caught out by the recent enforcing of the rules and were overly relaxed about their initial course having known of many others who have taken a number of years before attending, monkey see monkey do type thing. (It’s a bit of a harsh lesson in not letting yourself fall down to other people’s poor standards. If the Wings and Regions did not tip off their staff that the rules were going to be more strictly enforced as soon as they knew then something has gone wrong there).
However now we have these examples I think everyone who wants to be a uniformed staff member has a clear understanding of the consequences of not attending your initial uniform course.
I think both the AFT courses I attended were worthwhile and beneficial to me as a uniformed member of staff in the ACO. I like having one course run from AFT for everyone, run by one small group of staff, it maintains standards and uniformity on what is delivered. Further I like it being run at Cranwell, certainly having your IOC there makes it feel RAF Officer like. I do appreciate that some people have a lot further to travel to Cranwell then I do but you can book for additional nights, at the mess, you can claim your travel expenses and even booking a night either side you are only away the same time as a summer camp.
I think additional development before and after the course at a local level could be useful (though the additional pressure on Cadet activity time could be a challenge).
Staff from overseas squadrons come to ATF to complete their courses. There was one from gibralter on mine.
Look at what Thames Valley are rolling out with their “preparation for uniformed service” idea. A series of areas to complete like a log book, under the mentor of a couple of wing staff. They get people from across their sectors to meet up and work through different areas each month/couple of weeks, with aims and objectives for each.
I really like that idea and am very jealous of my friend on the course. I got nothing in the way of pre-training, except what I could pick up myself. I’m now an OC, and again had nothing in the way of training until I got to SCC (and even then 1 week isn’t enough to cover it all!).
This is and always will be a problem and depends how it’s done. If it’s done as I have seen … the course starts this on this weekend and finishes on that weekend and if you miss any you won’t be able to finish it, then people will shy away, because we although we might think we can commit to attending, in reality who knows what life will chuck our way. I think the people running them put it like that because it suits them and removes the need to do other things.
If it’s open ended in relation to completion (18-24 months) and modules run frequently enough, and based locally, or with the option to ‘nip across the border’ and attend sessions in other Wings, it will be more user friendly. If you wanted you could even redo a module and even current staff could dip in and out to refresh themselves, without the need to go to the ATF. Also one of the best ways of learning I have found is peer to peer, sharing knowledge and experiences. You get some of this in a week at ATF, but much more doing it locally.
You wouldn’t have to attend the ATF until you felt you were confident and the ATF element could be a 2/3 day affair just to ensure that you are where you need to be. The caveat is that you don’t get the full remuneration rate, until you have been to ATF. As for knowing who needs to attend is nonsense. I’ve got a spreadsheet that highlights people for CRB, extensions and so on. We all get reminders if we haven’t paid something, the utilities are really good for this, so the technology is there.
This could be extended to those taking a command on a much more personal level maybe. When I did OSC, as was, I agree with PEP in that it doesn’t even begin to prepare you for the role, regardless of how ready you think you might be.
The mentor idea sounds OK, but restricting it to Wing Staff not so sure. Some of them have been away from the coalface for far too long, better to have experienced staff from a local sqn.
Very true, but flexibility is not a one way street.
By the same virtue, most employers will set a policy, but have some flexibility (if asked) outside of it.
A little communication goes a long way.
i have often commented on the lack of training for Staff to be Staff and have to agree with pEp
there are enough courses to throw a medium sized Cadet at and still not hit them all when you look at courses that offer qualifications, first aid, Shooting, Comms, AT (has loads from BEL to Winter skills, climbing and paddlesports) driving quals, Drill, the lot
but personal developement has been lacking. i see it becoming an issue for some Sqns soon, particularly those with older OCs. it was said at a Wing conference a few years back in the next ten years we can expect to lose 25% of the current OCs through age alone (before taking into account other factors)
yet i havent seen a great deal done about it.
our OC isnt going to last forever and has a handful of junior Officers at our Sqn. the No2 (and Adj) has made it obvious to all they dont want command when the time comes and i dont have confidence in the other Officers to step up to the mark…unless some sort of development or training for the role is offered.
you might say well a Fg Off from a neighbouring Sqn may well sweep in and take OC, but we’re one of the stronger Sqn in the local area…
edit: i like that the SNCOs are now “developing” with certain factors to have been complete prior to promotion, but i think it could go a little further. much of what is on the matrix can and is completed by CIs in terms of roles on Sqn or involvement on Wing events. it goes some what to develop staff but i wouldnt say develops SNCOs in WOs
Maybe a question to ask is what actual training do ATF provide on SSIC, OIC and OSC that make the courses manadatory and as such people who haven’t been considered “a danger” to the organisation and those that have considered “safe”? To the point where not going within a pre-determined period will mean not being allowed to continue.
I’ve been on variants of all 3 and not felt particularly trained as I’ve driven away, ie I haven’t come away burdened with lots of new skills.
Sorry for the delay in my reply as I have been away with work so not much access to the real internet 
Just to clear a few points raised by others.
I had notified Wing via email from a .mod to a .mod email so can maintain the audit trail.
Rightly or wrongly I had already used a week of my leave to attend a camp this year.
Reason for not being able to use last of my leave… Only 4 days left until April and have to keep them as have an Old/frail/Ill parent that needs to be taken to the hospital quite a bit so need to keep it for that.
Now the funny bit.
My notification of termination had the date I was appointed as a CI on it not my SNCO appointment date so they had added 18+ months onto the date. (they thought 2.5 years total service instead of 12 months)
Also my Appointment wasn’t confirmed until Feb this year (WEF sept last year). Am I right in saying you cant book onto a course until you are officially appointed anyway ???
So if we think about it i had 2 months of the year with very little leave left (feb/march) so only actually had 6 months to get the course done in. Of course like most I have a job so have to try and book leave when its best for my employers not for me (for more than a few days at least).
[quote=“GOM” post=13376]Some employers require annual leave to be requested during the previous calendar year. For example, my own employer (a very large national organisation) allows one full week to be taken in the Spring, a fortnight in the Summer and a week in the Autumn/Winter. These leave requests must be submitted in the prior September and are subject to wrangling if other colleagues want the same weeks (we’re shift-workers and all the shits must be covered).
Additional annual leave may be taken outside these booked blocks, but it will not be guaranteed by my employer until the weekly roster is published on the Thursday prior to that week.
So for the sake of argument, let’s say I was joining now…
I was originally appointed in November, so if I was appointed again as a newly-minted Officer Cadet now, it would be after my annual leave request submission date for 2014. If none of my requested leave dates correspond with an available OIC week, I would be absolutely unable to attend a course in 2014. I could try to book ad hoc leave for one of the available courses, but this leave would not be confirmed until the Thursday before I started the course, meaning that I might have to cancel at last minute and hack everyone off from HQAC to my CO and everyone in between.
That would not be my fault and it would be manifestly unfair of the ACO to dismiss a member of staff for being trapped in this situation.
Whatever happened to the old mantra ‘Flexibility is the Key to Air Power’?[/quote]
So gen question - how do you manage to go to camp then?
My Wing are founders of lastminute.com and we get something like 8 weeks notice that a camp is on. You don’t even know who is going until a week or so before - sometimes on the day!
[quote=“noah claypole” post=13417][quote=“GOM” post=13376]Some employers require annual leave to be requested during the previous calendar year. For example, my own employer (a very large national organisation) allows one full week to be taken in the Spring, a fortnight in the Summer and a week in the Autumn/Winter. These leave requests must be submitted in the prior September and are subject to wrangling if other colleagues want the same weeks (we’re shift-workers and all the shits must be covered).
Additional annual leave may be taken outside these booked blocks, but it will not be guaranteed by my employer until the weekly roster is published on the Thursday prior to that week.
So for the sake of argument, let’s say I was joining now…
I was originally appointed in November, so if I was appointed again as a newly-minted Officer Cadet now, it would be after my annual leave request submission date for 2014. If none of my requested leave dates correspond with an available OIC week, I would be absolutely unable to attend a course in 2014. I could try to book ad hoc leave for one of the available courses, but this leave would not be confirmed until the Thursday before I started the course, meaning that I might have to cancel at last minute and hack everyone off from HQAC to my CO and everyone in between.
That would not be my fault and it would be manifestly unfair of the ACO to dismiss a member of staff for being trapped in this situation.
Whatever happened to the old mantra ‘Flexibility is the Key to Air Power’?[/quote]
So gen question - how do you manage to go to camp then?
My Wing are founders of lastminute.com and we get something like 8 weeks notice that a camp is on. You don’t even know who is going until a week or so before - sometimes on the day![/quote]
I guess when camp is going to be and book accordingly. For the last seven years or so, I’ve only done Easter Camp, which makes it a bit easier to predict. In the summer I’ve been organising overseas camps, so I simply plan them around my fortnight off.
I’ve also simply booked ad hoc leave and prayed…