I know there are a couple of Army Cadet staff on here & this is mainly directed to them.
What are the Army Cadet regulations on cadets who are waiting for lifts after a parade night/event? Should staff wait until all cadets have left before leaving themselves, or are there no regulations?
I know Air Cadet regs say we have a duty of care until they leave & therefore we only leave once all cadets have been picked up.
Is it the same for the Army Cadets?
Thanks
What have regulations got to do with it? Common sense. You canāt leave children unsupervised. And your cadets are ALL under 18, if I remember correctly.
depending on how they are interpreted it is until they get home given Parents donāt know they have left the unit to know they have got homeā¦
TM Morris - Well I wanted to check before I went off at the deep end. Iām not Army Cadet staff so technically this isnāt my problem.
And Steve - my point was specifically to do with cadets waiting for parents to pick them up, our duty of care means we have to wait until parents arrive, not just drive off & leave them. Although I agree re the duty of care extending til they are home for those who walk/get the bus.
my point was to highlight once left the unit gates they are on their way home and there is that grey area about who is responsible.
if they are still at the gates you as Staff havenāt done your bit to encourage them to get homeā¦or confirmed their lift has arrived
Iāve spent many an hour waiting for parents to turn up, be that after a parade or returning from an event, it goes with the territory.
Surely nobody can suggest that the duty of care extends until the cadet gets home!?
Once a cadet has left the unit premises, and therefore our presence, at the end of a parade night how can we be expected to fulfil such a duty?
All which can be expected of us legally and morally is that we take all reasonable care within our power. We can no more guarantee a cadets welfare on a bus or walking on their own than we can guarantee the lottery numbers.
If a parent chooses to let their child walk or bus to and from ATC that is their decision alone!
Agreed walk, bus or cycle out of our hands, but waiting in the car park or outside the sqn for a lift, probably a different matter. My dad used to pick me up and drop me off, dependent on his shift, in the town and Iād walk to the sqn from there.
The unfortunate thing is today (and itās a broader societal problem whereby youngsters are rarely out of view or not contactable) if a cadet was waiting and we just sodded off and something happened I can see HQAC looking to cover it up and deflect any responsibility and ensure that someone low down the food chain took the can. So we wait for no other reason than we have a sense of duty. Look at the furore over that young lad that died the other year and the fall-out for the FMS mob. I asked what if it was DofE where in theory we arenāt supposed to be on-site (more so silver and gold), let alone a few hundred yards away? The response was very garbled and got into the well you need to be contactable, but Iāve done DofE in some well populated areas and had very patchy mobile signal, so being contactable would mean being on-site.
this topic i recall being discussed (debated) while at ATF.
Until the child walks through the door the parent has reason to believe we CFAVs are responsible for their cherubs irrespective who decided on the route home (ie the parent or Cadet made the decision to walk, cycle, bus, hoover board, other not the CFAV).
it is a completely grey area as how can we take responsibility for 20+ young teenagers bomb bursting in 8 different directions around town at the end of an event/parade night?
But until the parent knows their child is at home, they donāt know when they (the parents) have responsibility again to get them home.
weāve all been to events or parade nights which have over run and indeed finished early.
although we might state a 2130 finish, or a 1600 return that doesnāt always happen and so the parents donāt know when they are responsibleā¦
(i agree its hopeless to enforce but apparent, then at least, was the situation we should be made aware of. and why it is correct to stop a Cadet cycling home without a helmet, or lights for instance)
That sounds like ATF are living in a different world!
A parent might well consider that until their child is back through the front door we are responsible for themā¦ But theyād be wrong and incredibly naive!
Itās not really a grey area at all. There is no physical way that we can provide any care of cadets in this situation when we are not present.
We have no legal or moral obligation to provide, or to be held accountable for the lack of provision of, care which it is not reasonably practicable to give.
Are we expected to travel with the cadets on foot/bus until they reach their home? Of course weāre not.
Instead of worrying that Mr & Mrs Little Johnny might blame us if their son gets lost or injured on his way home we simply remind them that once heās said goodnight - and with their consent - walked off on his own it is down to them.
If the parents arenāt happy with that they will simply have to collect Johnny themselves like other parents do.
This sort of short sighted fear of consequence and concern over legal obligation is retarded. Sadly it is often touted in all walks of life by professional āmanagersā with little subject matter knowledge and even less ability for logical thought.
I will however whole heartedly agree that where we can take action - such as ensuring that Johnny has a cycle helmet and lights - we are obliged to do so. If he doesnāt then a phone call to Mam or Dad to explain and ask that they pick him up, or to seek his promise that heāll push the bike home, seems sensible.
But if, having taking all the action we can, he goes off and cycles into a ditchā¦ How could we have reasonably prevented that?
As far as I know there are no specific rules. As soon as the cadet leaves the gate we are no longer responsible for them. That said, I wonāt leave my unit until they have all left to go home or been picked up.
Thanks Talon. I wanted to double check before I made an issue out of it. Canāt say I agree with the actions I witnessed the other day but if thereās nothing in the regulations then thereās nothing I can do.
Regulations or not, and within the framework of what Iāve said above about reasonable practicality, Iād say that if you feel you have a genuine concern in the realm of safety and/or duty of care then you should feel confident in speaking to someone about it.
If itās not an issue then nothing is lost, but if your concerns are legitimate and shared then youāve done the right thing.
Do we really have a regulation that states we canāt leave until all cadets have been picked up? I doubt that itās actually written as such, but I canāt imagine any member of staff actually leaving a teenager behind without a lift.
Matt I am not aware of any such regulation in writing anywhere, and I would agree with Talons view above. I donāt have to stay, but I do, because Iām a good person.
Matt, Daws, Iāve copied the below from ACP 4 (ch 2, para 7):
Responsibility for cadets starts from the beginning of an authorised ACO activity and ceases at the end of an authorised ACO activity. However, responsibility remains with the ACO until cadets have departed ACO control and/or premises (which includes transporting them).
Although it doesnāt specify you must remain until all cadets have left the premises (the āACO control and/or premisesā) it does allude to staff still being responsible (& therefore shouldnāt leave) until they are picked up.
Interestingly for those saying our responsibility extends until they walk in through the front door - that to me says it doesnāt.
I could be wrong, itās all down to interpretation. But as Daws & a couple of others said - we stay because we are good people & it goes with the territory.
HQAC have literally hundreds of qualified teachers working for them. I wish theyād ask our advice rather than making things up on the spot. How do ATF think schools work? Teachers are definitely NOT responsible for children who, with their parentsā consent, walk home. However, they are responsible for children who are left at school waiting to be picked up, and some parents do take advantage of this.
If you donāt already can I suggest a policy (unit based; letās not complicate this by involving Wing) which states āWe expect all cadets to be collected promptly by a responsible adult immediately after final parade. If you wish your son/daughter/ward to walk home, please complete and sign the form below and return itā¦ā
Why would they ask? They are THE font all of knowledge at Cranwell wrt safeguarding and CP and as with all their policies, they arenāt ones having to work with them or make them work.
I wouldnāt necessarily solely be asking teachers for their advice. I would look for a range of opinions from social workers, those in public protection roles, foster carers etc. Iāve met a lot of teachers I wouldnāt trust with any kids. Iāve met some who are fantastic teachers, but canāt articulate any sense, Iāve met academics with zero life skills.
I am not a teacher but work in a school and am also a governor. What TMM says is correct. This is not what teachers say but the advice of the LEA which has gone through the legal department of the local authority.
School have no powers over children while they are going to or coming home from school and also no duty of care.