[quote=“Baldrick” post=16006][quote=“Bailey” post=16002][quote=“papa november” post=16001][quote=“Bailey” post=15998]I know of CFAVs that do not even claim pay! Service Instructors do not get paid and can’t even claim mileage allowance.
If getting paid for what we do in the ACO is your main priority then you have got it all wrong!![/quote]
But Service helpers will receive a get you to work contribution if they live out, whereas CFAV have to pay their own way to work in it’s entirety. But that is a separate ‘contest’. As for those that don’t claim their PTDs, well that’s their choice.
As I see it GHE was simply thinking aloud. That said, part of our remit is to promote good citizenship, which rather implies that we should take part in public events, and not just hide in our respective HQs. Therefore, is the point not worthy of deliberation?[/quote]
Reserve Service Instructors are entitled to nothing![/quote]
That’s not strictly true for all reservists, I know plenty of OTC and UAS Cadets whose units allow them to claim pay for helping with ATC duties.[/quote]
That’s a debating point to be taken with the respective CoC.
Generally though WRT pay and allowances it would be nice to be given the opportunity to not claim it for all activities, not just ‘training’.
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who does it for the money, but I have and have had staff working part-time where claiming a day’s pay helps them enormously. I wouldn’t mind betting there are more people who have been made redundant over the last few years and have had to take one or more part-time jobs and getting PTD makes all the difference.
It all comes down to budgets, trying to submit a business case for a pot of money for Paid Days without any quantifiable limitations or value will fall at the first hurdle. Its simply the way things work, it has to be qualified. Therefor, making them Training gives a vaguely quantifiable return.
As for the SI (Full Time) you get nothing unless you are RAF. Simple, end of. You say take it up with the CoC… good luck, your own CoC will say its not their problem its the RAF as the owner of the ATC and the ATC CoC is very trying on this matter.
On the side of SI (Reserves) when you are looking at what I would call real ‘reserves’ (not getting in the argument of UAS/OTC/URNU are or are not reserves) they are only entitled to claim a) if they are RAF and b) if their unit has days spare not required for unit training (UAS/OTC/URNU generally have these days to spare). Then you ask why not be a CI, they could be, but it depends what you want out of it or to give to it. For some people, in some areas it does not work. I would argue they have more to bring to the party as SI ®.
On the issue raised at the start of the topic, yes I can see the frustration that the ACF get more but its a fact of life, the Army get more! Is it right for the Cadet Forces, not really. Will it change, not likely. I doubt that the number of CFAV in it for the money is very high but I do know, for some, it goes a long way. It should though be viewed as a privilege and not a right.
And finally, SI get HTD for their place of work as they have no choice as to where they work. SI get paid a salary much like many other CFAV, so no we do not get paid to do Cadet work, we do not get paid to work 365 24/7 as some say, otherwise we technically are not paid minimum wage. Yes our pay is marginally better but that is due to X-Factor balanced on the fact we put our lives at risk not to support the cadet forces. So next time you see an SI not in light blue, think it could be worse or you could be a SCC volunteer!
[quote=“flago” post=16017]Then you ask why not be a CI, they could be, but it depends what you want out of it or to give to it. For some people, in some areas it does not work. I would argue they have more to bring to the party as SI ®.
[/quote]
My bold: no they can’t. The only way a reservist can volunteer with the ACO is as an SI.
[quote=“tango_lima” post=16019][quote=“flago” post=16017]Then you ask why not be a CI, they could be, but it depends what you want out of it or to give to it. For some people, in some areas it does not work. I would argue they have more to bring to the party as SI ®.
[/quote]
My bold: no they can’t. The only way a reservist can volunteer with the ACO is as an SI.[/quote]
Technically, you are correct. But that’s not to say it isn’t happening. Which is a good thing. Because it helps SIs claim for travel.
But surely in the current climate of shrinking armed forces and non exisitent presence, the cadet forces are a visible presence in the local community.
How often is it is said of the ATC “we’re the best kept secret” (not sure about the ACF or SCC), because IMO as an organisation we are not front facing enough to large sections of the public on all but a couple of occasions during the year. I know many staff who shy away from public events because the Corps through it’s policies, doesn’t seem to view it as a proper activity, despite essentially having ‘citizenship’ in one of the Corps’ aims.
To this end being in the public eye and being ambassadors for positive youth activities, it is quantifiable and as equally valid as “training”. Supervising cadets (young people) put into a position where they may be asked questions by people, just talking to people and being involved in their local communities, training for life in terms of confidence and citizenship, as much as doing a day’s shooting, navex, xyz course is regarded as training?
The budget angle is one that will always be thrown at you, but is nonsensical, as I doubt the rules around length of time on duty wouldn’t remain extant.
Additionally, we are expected to be very much the public face of the light blue service, so therefore, where we are taking part in a public event under the guise of citizenship or ‘flying the flag’, after consideration, I believe that it is not unreasonable for the organisation to cover these under PTDs.
That is not to say that everyone would take up public events as PTDs, much the same as many do not take up their full allocation now.
Personally I can claim close enough my allocation of PTD via other means to not consider “public events” as a PTD.
When I first got appointed and I passed a PTD form to my OC I was told it wasn’t permitted as it wasn’t a core activity which I accepted.
I have since thought about it and it have some sense in that the public events we take part in at Squadron tend to be fund raisers, either for the event or for the Squadron and it would be hypercritical to be raising money for a charity while at the same time taking £50+ in pay…which could be multiplied 2, 3 or 4 times depending on the staff team and ranks
Yes I know you go high enough into Charities there are paid positions, but on the ground, in the charity shops working in the stores that isnt the case…
I have simply accepted it, and although I agree I often work harder at a fete or show than I would coaching on a range, but there has to be a line somewhere on what is and isn’t eligible activities
[quote=“Baldrick” post=16022][quote=“tango_lima” post=16019][quote=“flago” post=16017]Then you ask why not be a CI, they could be, but it depends what you want out of it or to give to it. For some people, in some areas it does not work. I would argue they have more to bring to the party as SI ®.
[/quote]
My bold: no they can’t. The only way a reservist can volunteer with the ACO is as an SI.[/quote]
Technically, you are correct. But that’s not to say it isn’t happening. Which is a good thing. Because it helps SIs claim for travel.[/quote]
I’m sure there are existing reservist CIs who have carried on in role, but if a reservist comes along and applies to be a CI now, then their application will be rejected and they’ll be told to re-apply as an SI. Unless they fail to declare their service, which would be lying on application and very naughty.
I think one issue would be courses where staff attend as “trainees”. Maybe we could have PTDs for community events if we couldn’t claim pay for courses we are effectively students on.
I am not talking about week long courses at Cranwell, but small wing run courses. Why should a Flt Lt student be paid more than a SGT instructor?
I know it would be a big deviation from the norm, but I would be all for a re-allocation of spending based on role, for example:
Sgt (ATC) and Flt Lt RAFVR(T) both attending a range day as qualified RCOs - pay them the same.
Sgt (ATC) course director on a first aid course and Flt Lt RAFVR(T) a student on course - pay the Sgt more.
I know it would be a very complex system, but where Sgts can be OIC doing the same role as Flt Lt OC, surely their pay should match up. There is nothing stopping an Officer Cadet - Flt Lt progression in a matter of months, whereas a Sgt (ATC) is stuck with Sgt for 4 years, even as an OIC.
When it goes wrong, they’ll be looking for an officer, not an NCO. No matter who’s i/c, d/s or in attendance. Responsibility lies at the door of officers.
If we are to keep some form of remuneration I would prefer it to be at a flat rate regardless of rank but with a bonus based on any specific responsibility (ie: camp commandant gets an extra £10 per day, for instance)
What about the adj who does most of the work? I know some squabbling leaders who apply for camp just for the pay and expect the juniors to do all the work.
I think Pay should stay as it is. That way you still have progression through the ranks. Otherwise what’s the incentive to be an OC, if you’re paid the same as a Plt Off when you go on courses and do all the suff that you do as an OC?
Otherwise, say you have a uniformed member of staff who HAS to be there for fieldcraft. They do nothing except sit around and drink tea, but the regs state they have to be there. Do they get paid more because they’re essential to the activity, even if they did nothing, compared to the CI who has done all the paperwork for it and the training?
The incentive of being an OC is that you get to be OC and have increased responsibility and influence. The progression is the promotion itself.
It is nice to get some money for attending a thing but I don’t need it; those who don’t get paid holidays or who have to miss out on work to attend the thing might actually need it but that isn’t currently taken into account.
All other things being equal, it costs no more for a Wg Cdr to attend a weekend course than it does for a Sgt. Why then does the Wg Cdr get almost 3 times the remuneration?
The pay scheme should be as simple as possible and if it was the same as the current reserve forces tax exempt lump sum after completing a set number of days per year would be a benifit. There should be an increase for those who carry out addional days and would recompense those doing more. Fair and easy.
Ive been a camp com and when the standing in front of a station commander for a no biscuits, hats on “discussion” isnt fun and makes you think “why am I here, i dont need this”. At that point it is only the dedicated who stay and carry on.
The incentive of being an OC is that you get to be OC and have increased responsibility and influence. The progression is the promotion itself.[/quote]
Woop! Sign me up
Obviously I can start farming out the staff disputes, the cadet disputes, the dealing with contractors who don’t work evenings and weekends, the building problems, the training issues, the clothing issues, the weapons stuff, the accounts stuff, the pressures from WHQ about moving staff or getting them into uniform, the pressures to share resources.
Then we’re all equal yeh?
(For what it’s worth, I know you know all that Incy. Just don’t think the promotion and being OC are justifications in their own right).
I’ll admit it, the only reason I went into uniform as to staying a CI was that I could claim pay for things I was doing anyway. That is just about the only bonus there is to being uniformed, IMO.
For progression we TRY to place the bast person in the position approriate to experience. In some cases its a right place wrong time at that point its a sink or swim. Those that sink need lots of support to allow them to get to a point of knowing what and how to do things. In some wings that is easy, some it is harder.
For me progression and expereince are usually equal to promotion, though there are exceptions to the rule.
Lots of stories some that send shivers down my spine.
