We have a recently appointed Officer Cadet RAF VR(T) on our Squadron and we both believe he should be saluted as we understand he has technically been appointed at the rank of Pilot Officer and therefore holds a Queen’s commission.
However, not everybody agrees. Would some kind person be able to give me a quote or a policy document indicating whether this person should be saluted or not, so I’d be able to clarify this matter.
I have found a topic saying he should, but I know this may be subject to change so I’d like to get the most current gen.
Officer Cadets ARE commissioned as Pilot Officers and gazetted as such. They are to be saluted due to them holding the Queens Commission as all that is missing is the presentation of the scroll which confirms said commission.
May I also point out that there is no gap between ‘RAF’ and ‘VR(T)’. The correct presentation of this post-nominal is: ‘RAFVR(T)’.
Yes he should. His letter advising him that he’s been appointed as Officer Cadet RAFVR(T) should state that although he is to wear white tabs, he is commissioned and is due compliments. His commission won’t be fully confirmed until completion of OIC, but he does technically hold it.
If I remember the letter correctly ( & I would have to dig mine out) it states that the individual has been appointed as Pilot Officer in the RAFVR(T) and is to be referred to as an Officer Cadet within the ATC until their ATF course.
So technically there is no Off Cdt RAFVR(T) as that is an ATC designation and the individual is Plt Off RAFVR(T) (although you could argue they are also Off Cdt(ATC) ). Simples :S !
If you would like a definitive answer in writing then ask for the appointment letter which should state that as far as the RAF is concerned the individual is a Pilot Officer (and it’s also what they put their rank as on pay claims and other service paperwork).
As everyone has stated as a RAFVR(T) you have been commisioned as a Pilot Officer so you are saluted you are not an Officer Cadet even though the ATC likes to call you one.
RAF Officer Cadets are just that Officer Cadets and not commisioned pilot officers so they are not saluted whic is where the confusion sets in.
There is no document I can find which definitively stated that OCdt VR(T) are to be saluted, nor is there one which says that they are not to be saluted. We must operate on the basis that they are actually commissioned as Plt Off and treat them accordingly.
For the elimination of any doubt, they wear a white rank slide with the VR(T) pin affixed centrally as their rank insignia. They do NOT wear white hat bands on No1SD hats nor white disks behind beret badges.
Unless they are at ATF, when they do wear white hat bands.
Just to add to the confusion, if you are W&W region, I believe their Regional Commandant issued a directive some time ago that they were NOT to be saluted in order to maintain commonality with the regular RAF procedures (despite the fact that they are, actually, entitled to compliments).
I’m unsure whether this has been rescinded or not since however.
I hope it has as im sure everyone here is awear we salute the Queens commission not the person they hold the commission so should be saluted…
The down side is of course anyone outside the ATC in the wider RAF will just see them as Officer cadets and wont salute them as most wont know they hold one!
RAF Officer Cadets are just that Officer Cadets and not commisioned pilot officers so they are not saluted whic is where the confusion sets in.[/quote]
I was commisioned as a Plt Off about a month through IOT - the commisioning scroll in the downstairs loo confirms the point. You don’t exercise the commision until completion of IOT.
As far as I see it, unless a mistake is made, no Off Cdt should be saluted, be they regular, VR(UAS) or VR(T).
I wish I wasn’t on my iPad (finding references is tricky) but I’m afraid you’re wrong - OCdts VR(T) do get saluted, confusing as that may be to an ex-regular.
The reason being that legally, there is no such thing. The RAFVR(T) is a formation of officers only and cannot contain non-commissioned personnel, hence the lack of progress on SNCOs. OCdts VR(T) are actually Plt Offs, and their commissioning scroll will be back-dated accordingly.
[quote=“tmmorris” post=12601]I wish I wasn’t on my iPad (finding references is tricky) but I’m afraid you’re wrong - OCdts VR(T) do get saluted, confusing as that may be to an ex-regular.
The reason being that legally, there is no such thing. The RAFVR(T) is a formation of officers only and cannot contain non-commissioned personnel, hence the lack of progress on SNCOs. OCdts VR(T) are actually Plt Offs, and their commissioning scroll will be back-dated accordingly.[/quote]
I don’t want to speak for him, but concerning ‘OCdts VR(T) are actually Plt Offs’ it looks like the point chaz is making is so are Officer Cadets in the regular RAF.
Anyway, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, all people going uniformed staff, be they cadet, CI or bloke off the street, should start out as AC(ATC).
I distinctly recall a briefing we all got on IOT, it may have been just before we went on our first Stn visit, but I’m not certain. Anyway, we we all informed in no uncertain terms that whilst some of us (graduates or intermediately qualified entrants) were technically commissioned from when we started at Cranwell and were officially Student Officers and others were not (the non-graduates and ex-airmen) the ‘proper’ Officer Cadets, we would all be treated exactly the same and addressed the same. Nobody would salute us, anywhere in the greater RAF not just at Cranwell, and we were NEVER to pick anyone up for not paying us compliments. As far as Cranwell was concerned and as far as we were concerned too for that matter, none of us were commissioned until the day we graduated.
The ACO has probably been right to introduce the Officer Cadet ‘rank’ into things as part of the process of standardising the VR(T) with the rest of the Service, it just needs to sort what status it has within the organisation. White tabs and hat bands even at their own Sqn to lose them after OIC would be a start; but even without that, a simple statement from HQAC would be all that is necessary to settle the matter one way or the other
I happen to think that we probably have the balance right at the moment, with squadron staff pre-ATF having white rank tabs but no white bands on headdress: to use white hat bands would further blur the line between a proper officer cadet and a VR(T) one and would not help to clarify things to observers.
That said, I remain unconvinced as to the need to visually identify pre-ATF staff at all.
Surely, the whole point of introducing Officer Cadets into the VR(T) was to indicate someone who has yet to complete their officer training, exactly the same as it’s used for in the parent Service? Therefore, that status remains wherever they serve, be it their own Sqn or at OIC. To that end, rather than blur the distinctions, wearing the Off Cdt white hat bands would help clarify things. Why do we in the ACO think we should be different from the rest of the RAF? All that is needed is a statement from HQAC to say that although technically commissioned, they are not fully trained and the paying of compliments to VR(T) Off Cdts is the same as all other Off Cdts in the RAF, ie they get none!
Surely, the whole point of introducing Officer Cadets into the VR(T) was to indicate someone who has yet to complete their officer training, exactly the same as it’s used for in the parent Service? Therefore, that status remains wherever they serve, be it their own Sqn or at OIC. To that end, rather than blur the distinctions, wearing the Off Cdt white hat bands would help clarify things. Why do we in the ACO think we should be different from the rest of the RAF? All that is needed is a statement from HQAC to say that although technically commissioned, they are not fully trained and the paying of compliments to VR(T) Off Cdts is the same as all other Off Cdts in the RAF, ie they get none![/quote]
I see what you are saying but as I said before you salute the commission not the officer so if they hold it we need to salute it maybe take the commission away until they pass??
I understand the whole ‘compliments to HM through the holder of a commission etc etc’ and I cannot argue against what you are saying; my point is that the ACO are being different - again. If not saluting Off Cdts is the policy at the premier Air Force Academy in the World, and I guess it still is, why are the ACO changing things and as seems to be the case on this thread, bringing in confusion, particularly, I would suggest, with the ex Regulars who know what they used to do?
At the end of the day, all it really needs is for someone to tell us what to do, salute or not and that’s what’s really missing. But it probably won’t stop the discussions over whether the policy is right or wrong!
I understand the whole ‘compliments to HM through the holder of a commission etc etc’ and I cannot argue against what you are saying; my point is that the ACO are being different - again. If not saluting Off Cdts is the policy at the premier Air Force Academy in the World, and I guess it still is, why are the ACO changing things and as seems to be the case on this thread, bringing in confusion, particularly, I would suggest, with the ex Regulars who know what they used to do?
At the end of the day, all it really needs is for someone to tell us what to do, salute or not and that’s what’s really missing. But it probably won’t stop the discussions over whether the policy is right or wrong![/quote]
In short, stop fannying around, make Off Cdts, regardless of which part of the service they are in wear white tabs and hat bands, and created clarity for everyone.
[quote=“chaz”]In short, stop fannying around, make Off Cdts, regardless of which part of the service they are in wear white tabs and hat bands, and created clarity for everyone.
Commissioned from entry is not isolated to just the RAF. The RN and RM are the same. I am not sure about the Army.
The RN is even more confusing as we don’t officially have OCdt in the RN. While in training we are not saluted. Although our commissioning date is back dated it does not mean while you await to be presented with your commission you are entitled to the etiquette afforded to an officer.
Put it this way, you are promoted to Sqn Ldr tomorrow but your rank is back dated to 3 months ago as you have been in post for that duration. You get the back pay for events etc. It does not mean you could, at the wing event one month ago, pull rank on a Flt Lt, although it was back dated it does not mean you were it at the time. If that makes any sense at all…
