Quite, it’s designed for racing across farmers’ fields on Salisbury Plain or the Luneberg heath in a CRV(T) and despite my best efforts my CivCom won’t let me buy one of those.
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Would you need a permit 19 for those if you had it as an SOV?
Even the Stormer has fewer than 9 seats.
The old school FV432 or the Saracen, on the other hand…
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Think HQAC MT will still insist on one
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It seems a bit silly to have up to 4 PMEs submitted for cadet only parades (CCF, SCC, ACF, ATC) and even more when other services are involved. Someone would have to collect all the forms in once place and add up all the numbers to try to get an idea of the security concerns (if any).
i completely agree.
but this is the fault of the system.
personally, i think it should fall to one organisation when there are two or more attending, and as convenient as it is to say it, as the “senior” service, it should be the ACF who conduct it ahead of the ATC.
if it is known both are going to be attending, the ACF liaise with the ATC to confirm attendance and any other relevant details (numbers, transport arrangements etc) and complete a single “Cadet forces submission”
that is pie in the sky thinking though as i am applying logic.
in my experience at the parade I attend, the ATC are super engaging and quick to respond, while the ACF are not, this year being a prime example as they needed chasing to confirm if they were sourcing their own wreath or wanted to be supplied through the RBL.
So relying on the ACF to complete the PME in my case locally i am not confident it would be done quickly, on time or with all the details - and if there is a requirement to liaise with the ATC not necessarily considered (as it is not my responsibility i have not inquired if either have completed a PME, but i would be willing to bet £100 if one has it will be the ATC Squadron)
Given the ATC request PLI certificates in response to invitation to attends and the ACF haven’t shows a level of diligence to the event.
on the basis both have submitted a PME though, and are timed similiar to their response to the invite to attend, the ATC would have submitted theirs the second week in September, while the ACF 5 weeks later…thus sitting in very different places in the “in tray” and so would need some joined up thinking in the system for Sy to notice there are two applications for the same event.
As you say, with up to four applications, for the Cadet Forces alone, this gets messy, before considering the Armed Forces representatives.
When I was at Uni i joined the local parade there - we had two ATC units on parade, a similar representation from the ACF, likely CCF attending too and two lots of Army Reserves too!
in this case it makes sense that a PME application is made by the organiser, but in such a way that is easy to fill out as a “top level” submission - but it would almost be too vague to be useful, so perhaps why it hasn’t been considered?
As I said, the ACF do not submit PMEs for Remembrance, at least in my area, so we wouldn’t do one. We just notify brigade where the parades will be in a big excel spreadsheet. We would submit one for AFD though, if we actually had a parade anymore. Also, it shouldn’t be down to the senior service, it should be whoever is in charge of the parade. For us, it is the ATC, despite the CCF being on parade.
As to the “vagueness”, I’d think that a single PME showing that there will be 6 units of roughly 30 people each on parade, will be more useful than 6 PMEs, showing 20,34,15,20,50,22 people on parade.
Agreed & the person submitting should also fwd on or Cc the other unit OCs so they are are aware that it has been done.
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Surely slight differences in numbers attending (+ / - whatever) shouldn’t make any difference to the overall concept of a composite PME.
Have a lead organisation nominated / agreed, then whack in a composite PME in good time for all expected groups with expected participation / historical numbers; go for one revision much nearer the time if accurate numbers are available.
We try to make attendance at Remembrance Parade “mandatory” - for a volunteer organisation 
- but we still get variation on planned numbers on the day.
but if a “third party” is the one “in charge” in our area that organisation is not approved to submit an PME (indeed there are questions in it that the third party organisation cannot answer).
in your AFD parade example, if this were organised by the town council, who would submit the application? the ATC is not the one “in charge”, the council are.
So it is either a single CF application, which is submitted by either one on agreement, or defaults to the senior service or there are 6 different applications submitted.
i completely agree. but it isn’t just about numbers.
the PME in our area requests items which we as the RBL/Council cannot answer (And I copy and paste directly from the form):
- transport to be used,
- number of attending Service personnel dedicated to security duties
- No of Unit SHARKWATCH pers provided (strongly recommend minimum of 3 unless Police agree otherwise).
- No of addl pers assigned solely to secure wpns (if wpns auth by 11X), in the event of a veh/ blade/ other attack.
(although i recognise not relevant for CF, I have been on a Battle of Britain Parade with reserves carrying weapons)
*Parking locations before, during and after the event (as applicable) - Proposed guarding arrangements (if not parked on a secure site)
- Method of Travel ( with flight/ sailing numbers if applicable) for outbound and return journeys
It is because of these questions i went back to the Sy team asking it is correct i am expected to answer these [with an RBL hat on] and the disclaiimer within the form that 3rd party should not submit it.
they agreed and have not been bothered since.
So while a “vague” these X units are attending with an estimate Y numbers, it only covers a fraction of the PME requirement in our area.
Again, I would suggest that if any af these areas have been relevant previously, then historical data should give a good pointer.
However, unless you are in the middle of a large city, with coaches / parking / guarding needed, most of the PME aspects are “not applicable.”
There also needs to be an understanding that the best organisation for submitting a PME might not be an “approved” one - but I suspect that a coordinated PME, even using historical data, would be a lot more accurate than lots of separate ones.
Incidentally, I’ve noted the SHARKWATCH parameters before - I would image that in terms of participants (especially youth organisations), when you consider other roles such as first aid (dragging out those who don’t feel well / faint), there aren’t that many people left for other duties!
Our Remembrance Parade closes off some local roads for the period of the preparation / ceremony, so there are often lots of pedestrians passing through to get to the nearby rail station - dragging large suitcases. That gets me a little nervous…
I think this is ann issue of the form as I think it’s trying to put the responsibility onto the police when the police can only advise.
Event organisers also need to submit their event management plan to the police separately to any PME which kinda makes the process redundant.
Perhaps the simplest option is that it’s delegated away from from HQAC & it goes through region TSAs who can link in & agree the processes that their local police want followed rather than trying to dictate a single process that has to be acceptable to 4 different countries, three legal jurisdictions (not counting the crown dependencies) & 43 police forces.
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That’s what the ATC used to do.
Honestly, most of the time I have to answer “N/A” to most of the question on the PME form.
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It’s like all the info on the TOPL form - I very very rarely have tracked vehicles on a DfE - and when I did it was my remote control Lego off-roader.
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Why were you driving an RC Lego vehicle at the Department for Education?
Not enough work to occupy my time 
My local councils had no idea what a PME is (nor, for that matter, did our local CIV Pol - bearing in mind w have 2 RAF stations, 3 AR (TA) centres, and a regular army barracks, inc RMP, in the local area).
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Unfortunately some local councils and even regular units don’t do the pme, hence cadet unit has to do it (not the case for everyone).