New PAM 5-C

[the_marksman]

[quote=“Chief Tech” post=13913][quote=“juliet mike” post=13910]As is stated above, the safety catch makes no difference during the stoppage and IA, the weapon will not fire, which is why it is a stoppage.

A safety catch is not applied during a stoppage on a .22 rifle during a stoppage (misfire etc) so why should it be required.

I think and fell, from my experience, that this magical Safety Catch on the L98 possibly gives cadets a false sense of security. They should be thinking about more than whether it is at S or F.[/quote]

The safety catch on a No 8 doesn’t make a difference as it prevents the bolt operating and the firing pin has already gone forward.

However with the L98, the safety catch does stop the weapon from firing whilst clearing a stoppage i.e. working parts go forward when the cadets finger is holding onto the trigger = Instant bang*[/quote]
Interesting. You shouldn’t be able to do that with any SA80 series weapon (A1 or A2). The only way I can think of to achieve that is to operate the cocking handle manually to get a round fed from the magazine but without going back far enough for the safety sear to lock the hammer. And that would be an obvious design flaw, so I wouldn’t expect that to be physically possible at all!

As for safety catches etc - from a mechanical point of view, the safety on the SA80 achieves nothing other than to stop the firer from being able to fire the rifle conventionally. If you find a workaround (like the sear-skipping hammer scenario above), or the rifle stops in such a manner that it’s capable of firing without the trigger being pressed (broken trigger mech, for example), applying the safety catch definitely won’t help. Or, as hotshot says, your firer automatically operates the weapon after clearing the stoppage, without thinking, hence the safety catch becomes redundant anyway.

(Although counterpoint this with the L81A2 where it is dangerous to use the safety catch and cadets are instructed not to touch it).

News to me. The L81 safety catch isn’t dangerous to use at all, but it can be broken by the ignorant. From memory (been 5 years since I was hands-on with any cadet weapons) it locks the bolt like the No.8 safety catch does, but unlike the super-robust Lee Enfield locking bolt/safety catch arrangement, the L81 safety can be snapped by someone trying (very!) hard to open the bolt with it applied. This results in a small piece of broken metal bouncing around the trigger mech, causing the obvious problem of it jamming in a hard-to-fix position.

Ultimately, does applying the safety catch during an IA drill reduce the likelihood of the weapon being fired while the stoppage is cleared? No. It’s just one more thing for the firer to worry about while trying to unbugger his weapon in double-quick time. You can safely shoot any weapon without ever using the safety - it’s just there as a “last resort” backup for your correctly carried-out drills. I really don’t buy into the “it teaches cadets to think safe” mindset. IMHO, for rangework it does nothing of the sort; it teaches people that if you press the magic button everything will be OK. And that’s a dangerous over-reliance on design features, rather than promoting safe operation. I’d far rather be on a range where people understood the importance of safe direction and carried out their NSPs religiously, than constantly fretted over applying safeties on the firing point - where if a round is fired downrange it’s not going to do much other than drill a hole in the range furniture.

It will give those cadets and, dare I say, Adults, who perhaps are a little nervous coming to LF for the first time that extra psychological reassurance.

Alternative view: it’s one more thing for them to remember and thus one more thing to get panicky about. KISS. If you genuinely need the “reassurance” of the safety catch, you probably don’t understand how/why the rifle works and shouldn’t be on the firing point without 1:1 supervision.

[MattB]

Indeed - the more complicated we make the drills the more likely that the firer - in trying to remember the less critical bits - forgets or makes a mistake doing something important.

[steve679]

although i cannot disagree with the logic, i sit on the fence on the subject of the SC for the IA. yes it brings the L98 inline with the L85 and in a real world scenario isnt really offering any greater safety…it is a Cadet “FAD” if you will

i have always reminded Cadets during the final practise period/revision prior to WHT that after every instruction given during a test (or even on the range) the first action is to check the position of the SC.
from the NSPs, trhough the Load, Make Safe, Unload to the IA drills the SC should always be checked first

it isnt fool proof by any means, there are still Cadets who fail to do this, but the majority do remember “SC first” on every action.
that seems easy enough to remember as a “general rule” than working out when it should and shouldnt be applied which will only lead to confusion and potentially errors

much like the tap forward - was previosuly not required for an NSP (why tap forward to ensure the bolt is fully seated to fire the round when you have checked there is no round present) yet was for all other drills has now gone with the new Pam5-C as a “general rule”, everytime the working parts go forward tap forward is given

[MattB]

[quote=“steve679” post=14138]i have always reminded Cadets during the final practise period/revision prior to WHT that after every instruction given during a test (or even on the range) the first action is to check the position of the SC.
from the NSPs, trhough the Load, Make Safe, Unload to the IA drills the SC should always be checked first[/quote]Not quite - aside from any fire order, the ease-springs also doesn’t start with the safety catch.

[quote=“steve679” post=14138]much like the tap forward - was previosuly not required for an NSP (why tap forward to ensure the bolt is fully seated to fire the round when you have checked there is no round present)[/quote]Because the trigger wouldn’t operate correctly if the working parts weren’t forward, regardless of whether or not there’s a round in there.

But the forward assist as anything other than an IA drill seems to be an anachronism on the A2 models anyway. I remember when first converting (in 2004) that we were told that it was a hang-over from the A1, and would likely be binned. I have tried on a number of occasions to deliberately make the working parts hang back on an A2 and I can’t make it do it, even after firing when it’s a bit dirty. So the chances of its happening when the working parts slam forward seem pretty minimal to me.

[steve679]

Not quite - aside from any fire order, the ease-springs also doesn’t start with the safety catch.

ok, ease springs is the exception, but it isn’t seen in the WHT which is where i use the “general rule” and where it is applicable.
the fire orders do typically include checking the SC…checking it is off on the “go on/fire/watch and shoot”

[Racing_Stick]

Indeed - the more complicated we make the drills the more likely that the firer - in trying to remember the less critical bits - forgets or makes a mistake doing something important.

Yeah! Really complicated adding the pressing of a switch from one side of the rifle to the other…

[incubus]

The safety catch is the thing you release once in the aim, just before you move your finger onto the trigger.

Having the thing set to safe during an AI drill will give a little extra protection against the firer with slack drills whose finger slips inside the trigger guard whilst shuffling about. In our environment, any disadvantage (ie, a fraction of a second extra, if any time at all) is countered by having that extra safeguard. It isn’t infallible, but it is better.

[MattB]

[quote=“MattB” post=14135]Indeed - the more complicated we make the drills the more likely that the firer - in trying to remember the less critical bits - forgets or makes a mistake doing something important.

Yeah! Really complicated adding the pressing of a switch from one side of the rifle to the other…[/quote]I wasn’t suggesting that the act of applying the safety catch itself as being complex, but rather that every step that’s added increases the complexity of the drill overall.

[incubus]

[quote=“Racing Stick” post=14143][quote=“MattB” post=14135]Indeed - the more complicated we make the drills the more likely that the firer - in trying to remember the less critical bits - forgets or makes a mistake doing something important.

Yeah! Really complicated adding the pressing of a switch from one side of the rifle to the other…[/quote]I wasn’t suggesting that the act of applying the safety catch itself as being complex, but rather that every step that’s added increases the complexity of the drill overall.[/quote]Not really, so long as it precedes each drill. It then becomes easier to remember as a previous poster said.
By the same logic, if we need to tap forward as a routine action (as opposed to fixing a stoppage) then doing it each and every time is a less complex procedure than needing to remember which drill needs a tap and which doesn’t; or doing a 7 point check on an NSP when only a 4-point check should be done.

[talon]

[quote=“incubus” post=14147]
By the same logic, if we need to tap forward as a routine action (as opposed to fixing a stoppage) then doing it each and every time is a less complex procedure than needing to remember which drill needs a tap and which doesn’t; or doing a 7 point check on an NSP when only a 4-point check should be done.[/quote]

What is a 4 point check?

[incubus]

[quote=“talon” post=14158]What is a 4 point check?[/quote]short-hand
Probably inaccurate - checking now I see the text is “Look into the opening and ensure the body, chamber and face of the bolt
are clear of ammunition or obstructions” so that is 3 areas/points in the check.

Amusingly, by the wording in 0119, you could carry out an NSP with a magazine fitted

[MattB]

Not if you’ve done the full course - the NSP for a loaded rifle is the unload drill.

[incubus]

Ah yes, 0195. I’d have thought that would be in red.

“If a weapon has to be carried in a vehicle it is to be unloaded and correctly slung or secured in the rack provided.” - so, not slung in the boot then?