I see it all the time, but I genuinely don’t get why this isn’t obvious to people.[/quote]
Devils advocate moment here…
So if your at an event where by if you were with only officers short sleeves would suffice as being the appropriate uniform but then chuck cadets into the mix and to have cadets in working dress would not be smart enough. So the next step up would be tie, does that mean you should alter rig due to the lack of uniform options for cadets?
On another thought, being in the RN I have what is effectively ‘working blues’ for me 4s. Are you suggesting I should wear this when the cadets wear working blues?
I understand this logic but at the same time find it slightly perplexing when I come from a service that does not even issue a tie to its Leading Hands (Cpls) and Able Rates (Airmen) but all other ranks can and you often see some in tie and others not at many different occasions.
Defining the ideal by reference to specific shirts will never work so long as the specifics of the uniform vary depending on type of membership or of service.
If cadets are in working dress (No2C for them) then staff should be in working dress (which can be 2(full), 2A or 2B as they wish). If they are in No3 dress then the staff ought to be in No3 dress.
If cadets are in 2(full) with tie for a formal event then staff should be in No1 or No2(full) to match, with non-uniformed personnel in similarly formal attire. When writing the orders for a formal event I will always specify the dress standards for various participants.
Of course, we tend to dress as appropriate for the activity which an individual is involved in: the drill team may be doing a uniform check in 2(full) while other cadets are in 2C or 3 - staff will tend to be in working dress or in 3 if their task requires it. What is great for the drill team now is that they can take the ties off for the rest of the evening (while wearing jerseys) and still be correctly dressed.
I see it all the time, but I genuinely don’t get why this isn’t obvious to people.[/quote]
Devils advocate moment here…
So if your at an event where by if you were with only officers short sleeves would suffice as being the appropriate uniform but then chuck cadets into the mix and to have cadets in working dress would not be smart enough. So the next step up would be tie, does that mean you should alter rig due to the lack of uniform options for cadets?
On another thought, being in the RN I have what is effectively ‘working blues’ for me 4s. Are you suggesting I should wear this when the cadets wear working blues?
I understand this logic but at the same time find it slightly perplexing when I come from a service that does not even issue a tie to its Leading Hands (Cpls) and Able Rates (Airmen) but all other ranks can and you often see some in tie and others not at many different occasions.
Just some ideas to throw into the mix.[/quote]
Incubus has got it in there before me what he has just said I agree with 100%
[quote=“incubus” post=12884]Defining the ideal by reference to specific shirts will never work so long as the specifics of the uniform vary depending on type of membership or of service.
If cadets are in working dress (No2C for them) then staff should be in working dress (which can be 2(full), 2A or 2B as they wish). If they are in No3 dress then the staff ought to be in No3 dress.
If cadets are in 2(full) with tie for a formal event then staff should be in No1 or No2(full) to match, with non-uniformed personnel in similarly formal attire. When writing the orders for a formal event I will always specify the dress standards for various participants.
Of course, we tend to dress as appropriate for the activity which an individual is involved in: the drill team may be doing a uniform check in 2(full) while other cadets are in 2C or 3 - staff will tend to be in working dress or in 3 if their task requires it. What is great for the drill team now is that they can take the ties off for the rest of the evening (while wearing jerseys) and still be correctly dressed.[/quote]
If only some SNCO’s ATC could do this there is one on my sqn and when she gets hot she takes her tie off and rolls up her sleeves on her wedgewood shirt and no matter howm many time I mention its wrong she still carries on :ohmy:
I think we’re getting wrapped around the axle with variations of uniform here. My comment earlier was directed not at the actual detail of the uniform the individual was wearing, but more at what he had chosen to wear in the prevailing conditions - he appeared to be warm and toasty whilst his cadets did not.
Of course there will be occasions where staff will be dressed differently to cadets and I wholeheartedly agree with many of the above comments - ie if the cadets are in No 2 (SD) with tie or No 2A (or whatever) and looking their best, their staff should be too. But what I was suggesting in response to the original post was that it could be more or less a welfare issue; you make sure your cadets are kitted properly for what they are doing and you don’t turn up better kitted than them.
That may not always be entirely possible within the same order of uniform (staff can wear goretex waterproofs but cadets make to with jeltex, for instance) but the example stated above is just Not Cricket.
If there is a genuine welfare issue I’d sooner see cadets in civvy waterproofs or not there at all, regardless of the activity. I have always wondered what we’d do come Remembrance Parade if it turned out to be bucketing slush…
I’ve never had an occasion to parade in snow or slush, but we regularly used to get wet on Remembrance Days gone by.
Abergavenny was almost always fine, but the afternoon parade in Blaina would invariably be rained on.
It was a relatively long march IIRC but we always just warmed up at the buffet afterwards.
It was never considered to be a problem. By anyone.
I’ll put cadets in waterproofs if required for a parade because that’s the precedent we are expected to conform to these days, but I can’t help but think we’re being a bunch of panzies. If it’s REALLY hammering down then don’t parade; but a bit of drizzle?..
I couldn’t count the number of times I’ve been wet through in my life - I just dry off and job’s a good’n. It’s never compromised my ‘welfare’.
Totally agree - we need to man up if it’s a bit drizzly. Did a formal parade today - biennial inspection - armed guard of honour* and band in light drizzle. A non-event. One cadet fainted but nothing to do with the weather…! Hammering it down, if they have to stand outside for hours, fair enough - we only parade outside on Remembrance Sunday for about 15 minutes so again, we can man up.
So far (fingers crossed) we’ve not had bad weather for Remembrance Sunday that I can recall. I’ve probably just jinxed this one! Only once had to cancel a flypast (low cloud/fog).
*tri-service - just the one RN cadet, resplendent in full no. 1 dress