Aries is correct in saying that the right to get on a SOV is subject to being a Cadet…and by being a Cadet they pay subs…which in turn falls under “hire and reward”
D1 is the only safe way around this…
Massive grey area and is applied as seen fit by whoever at the time.
Not all cadets pay Subs. Some are exempted for various reasons.
Volleyed back to you
The whole point of the Permit 19 exemption was to allow groups such as us to continue existing when the legislation changed. People read far too much into hire and reward, when it’s actually a very simple concept which does what it says on the tin.
Further to my last a simple look at the www.gov.uk website regarding who can drive a minibus spells this out in simple terms.
It states (paraphrasing) that the exemption applies if the passengers are not being charged for the journey.
Your argument is that cadets pay subs and that this is payment for the journey. (Which I could counter by pointing out that through an accounts 4 the ACO pays for the journey, but I won’t as I don’t need to).
As it also states that you can charge running costs and still use the exemption as long as you have a permit. (This is the Permit 19 that you apply for for HQAC).
So put simply if you are not charging at all then you can just drive but if you are charging running costs then you need a permit 19.
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sigh
Well ok fine….those Cadets can travel with a P19 driver
Those 99% of Cadets that do, can’t.
not so black and white when it comes to running costs
[quote] Payment for providing transport
The legal term for this is ‘hire or reward’. It’s any payment, in cash or kind, which gives a person the right to be carried on the vehicle, regardless of whether or not that right is exercised. Hire or reward takes place if the journey is organised in a way that goes beyond the bounds of mere social kindness.
The payment may be made by the passenger or on the passenger’s behalf. It may be a direct payment, eg a fare or an indirect payment such as a membership subscription. Where indirect payments are made in respect of other services (rather than specifically for the transport) they’re still likely to be viewed by the courts as hire or reward because anyone who hadn’t made the payment would have no right to be carried
[/quote]
That right would be an enrolled Cadet paying subs for example…
Ie given we only transport Cadets in the bus, not every Tom, Dick and Jane and a Cadet pays subs, that entitles them to travel on the bus to the Sports, Development course, weekend event, other…
Stop looking for trouble where it doesn’t exist
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can you explain what you are getting at??
Its not the driver that has the Permit 19 its the vehicle, if the vehicle is covered by a Permit 19 then any driver can use the vehicle on a Category B License providing they meet the criteria to not have a D1.
So you take the requirements from the Not for Hire and Reward which exempts you from having a D1 and you throw away the bit that says not for Hire & Reward as you have a Permit 19 and therefore you can charge as long as you meet the extra criteria that you need to get a Permit 19. (All of which are covered by the Application form on Bader)
https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus
"Minibus permit - if you need to charge running costs
You can apply for a minibus permit if you need to charge passengers, as long as:
the vehicle can carry between 9 and 16 passengers
you’re driving it for a voluntary organisation that benefits the community - eg an educational, religious or sports organisation
the minibus service is only available for members of that organisation - not to the general public
any charges are to cover running costs and are not for profit"
If you look at section 3.2 it’s all nice and simple
Each sqn is a charity there for should be a not for profit organisation so we’re entitled to a permit 19
If we were not entitled to use them then HQAC would not be an issuing body!
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You are pointing out bits of law which you are misinterpreting. See above…
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PSV 437 provides some pretty clear guidance. See Annex 4.
Not-for-profit groups concerned with education, religion, social welfare, recreation (standard permits only) or other activities of benefit to the community can get permits. The standard permit is for a vehicle that can carry up to 16 passengers. These permits are issued either by traffic commissioners or designated bodies (local authorities, various national charities or church organisations etc). They allow the holder of the permit to carry members of the group (e.g. Scouts) or people whom the group aims to help (e.g. disabled people). The permit gives details of those who may use the vehicle but it must not be the general public.
Scouts, which have a similar operating model to us of subs etc. are explicitly mentioned. Also as someone else mentioned HQAC is able to issue permits, which they wouldn’t be if we were not included by the exemption.
The hire and reward thing about subs counting is true. But is correct but “hire & reward” and “for profit” are different.
All the hire & reward requirement means is that we need a permit 19. If you had a whole busload of cadets of that didn’t pay subs you wouldn’t even need a permit 19.