having done my D1 at Leconsfield i can’t see ti filling up soon.
we should have had four on the course but only three were nominated…This is usual I understand from the ACO side of training…
Would it be any different if people had Torneo style vehicles which don’t need a D1?
When confronted with a problem you have to find away around it. What I want to know is how many will pay out loadsamoney and all the agg of medicals etc for an additional to a licence that might use once in a blue moon for Corps activities? As I say there are ways around this IF P19 is all about a D1 and not the hire/reward scenario. If it’s about the latter and nothing to do with the D1 licence group HQAC are talking from where the sun doesn’t shine.
Getting a people carrier sounds pretty straight forward, however… Take a summer camp…
Summer camps most bases have a couple of minibuses allocated to the camp anything else your struggling. 2 x17 seater minibuses would mean 4 people carriers, meaning 4 FMT 600 drivers and getting FMT600s is getting harder and harder.
Add in the rules on driving/ duty hours the amount of staff needed at camps is getting larger and larger yet the spaces at camps allocated for staff is getting smaller.
Getting an FMT 600 is pretty easy. The difficulty is just finding the time. The actual process however is pretty straight forward.
No point in getting a people carrier, you can get a transit half and half, don’t need a D1 and you have kit space.
Almost better off without white fleet vehicles and use SOV’s on camp at least everyone can drive them (for now).
How many SOV’s would you need then and where are they coming from??
On paper it’s a doddle…it’s not just time
Took me years to get mine Local TA centres couldn’t help, booked time off work went to parent station to find out it had been cancelled. Went to several week long camps at RAF bases first thing I did was ask about getting my FMT600 same reply… Nope
Our wing has tried to arrange a training day at our parent station for the last 5years either week day or weekend but available for the wing to get as many through as possible but they keep saying no.
Parent station is now closed and we don’t have a parent station to assist anymore, nearest station possibly willing to help 5hrs away.
As I said at my nco and officers and OC’s courses at Cranwell why not try and get people on a FMT course while they are here if they can…
The traditional SOV ie minibus will die out as the cost and time to acquire a D1 becomes even more a reality for the Corps as any staff born after 1981 won’t have the automatic D1.
If you have a vehicle on the squadron that can move kit and or people that doesn’t need a D1 then that’s what is required. As said a half and half or the American style half trucks around move kit and cadets without need of a trailer. Fill up a minibus with cadets and you need a trailer and or additional cars. When you speak to sqns with minibus SOVs they sit around for 80%-85% of the year doing nothing and when they do move they aren’t much more than half full. Which could be moved a lot easier in cars.
The question to ask is, is HQAC willing to srump up all the costs for people getting a D1 (including the actual driving course and test, if MOD sources aren’t sufficient), if yes it’s a feasilble requirement, if no then SOVs as we know them will disappear and become something all staff can drive, rather than a few oldies. I’ve been on camps in the last few years and been ‘duty driver’ and been given a temporary 600, as not to do so would jeopardise the viability of the camp.
Personally a 600 only gives me permission to drive something that I can already. It takes my time in terms of a day every year to get something that I might use once or twice a year at best, as such is not a good use of my time. It works for personnel in the armed forces as they get it done as part and parcel of their day job.
But still is P19 about D1 and hire/reward or just hire/reward?
People get bogged down a bit on the hire and reward bit. In simple terms
the P19 is there for anybody using a minibus for youth/ community groups
The D1 is for professional drivers to use
The p19 won’t be going away anytime soon. One of the issues with permit 19’s is that they are issued to the vehicle NOT the person anymore. This is where the problem starts with white fleet you hire a hertz wagon and you don’t know the registration until it arrives, so you can’t get it put on the P19 register. Also it costs a bit more to insure with a P19 not much for a squadron but if your the MOD it soon adds up.
Anyway to put the hire/reward to bed… We no longer get paid we get “volunteer remuneration” 
to reaction to some of the above
I have done the Leconsfield course, and now about 3-4 others who have to - it is not unusual (for me at least) to know someone who has been or knows someone who has.
the whole cost can be reclaimed via a F1771
Medical
Theory tests (up to two attempts)
fuel to get there
and if a Uniform member a F80 can be filled out too.
the “paperwork” is dealt with by Leconsfield leaving no cost but the time to do it by the individual.
I have used mine on two occassions for Phoenix and numerous times for the SOV - Our WExO made it perfectly clear that i was not to drive the SOV until a D1 was achieved, he was not happy me driving under P19 rules.
as for a bus sitting still for 80% of the time?
Our bus gets used weekly between Jan-July minimum as it is used to ferry the Squadron representatives to the Wing Road Marching training days. I am using the bus this weekend too to get Cadets to a training course (sharing the bus with the Road Marchers)
as a minimum i would say the SOV takes 5-6 journeys a month on weekends on average. yes that is 25 days it isn’t being used (typically M-F) and is about 17% of the time. but consider we only really use it on the weekends it is closer to 85% it is in use…
As a regular at RIAT i was able to use my D1 for the ferrying of troops in the Minibuses there
there are certainly advantages to a Tourneo or other non-D1 vehicle as it opens up more drivers. it is a case of how often do you fill a 17 seater? if average use is 3-8 passengers there is arguement for a smaller none D1 vehicle but what happens when you have the demand for a larger vehicle? run two vehicles alongside each other??
i know one Sqn that does that in the Wing, but of course it doubles the cost…
7 out of the 8 Squadrons in my sector have SOV’s all of which can be driven on a permit 19 and we tend to do sector based camps in my wing. Yes it would increase the cost of the camp marginally as you can only use an accounts 4 to claim fuel to and from camp so the rest would need to be paid for by the cadets.
We run all of our DofE and plenty of AT locally using SOV’s so no reason we can’t do the same for annual camp.
What was the logic of your WeXO saying you can’t use a Permit 19? Is your bus too heavy or are they just making rules up?
Years ago when I was a cadet. On summer camp all the transport was supplied by MT; Vehicles drivers, the works. No need for 600s or minibuses. Anyway there were not many SOVs in the 1980s.
7 out of 8 in the sector 
We have 3 SOVs in the wing!!!
How do you run any activities???
Sorry your SOV your responsibility to ensure its safe to be on the road, your staff are qualified. WExO has nothing to input into this. I would raise it with your sector commander, that you are ignoring him and continuing on using it under the guidelines issued by HQAC and DVLA.
I thought the real advantage of a Permit 19 is that it allows people without D1 to drive minibuses with 15 seats less than 3,500 kg. That’s what we used it for at university.
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making up rules.
i spent a lot of time researching it all and came to the conclusion i was happy to drive the bus as i felt it was legal.
it is only a SWB 14 seater so no risk being overweight and is plated at 3500kgs
the WExO thought otherwise and banned me (although asking several times both direct and my OC yet to see the email itself) from driving without a D1
(it should be noted that the insurance didn’t state D1 either…)
[quote=“steve679, post:31, topic:2131, full:true”]
the whole cost can be reclaimed via a F1771
Medical
Theory tests (up to two attempts)
fuel to get there
and if a Uniform member a F80 can be filled out too. [/quote]
OK not too bad.
[quote=“steve679, post:31, topic:2131, full:true”]
as for a bus sitting still for 80% of the time?
Our bus gets used weekly between Jan-July minimum as it is used to ferry the Squadron representatives to the Wing Road Marching training days. I am using the bus this weekend too to get Cadets to a training course (sharing the bus with the Road Marchers)
as a minimum i would say the SOV takes 5-6 journeys a month on weekends on average. yes that is 25 days it isn’t being used (typically M-F) and is about 17% of the time. but consider we only really use it on the weekends it is closer to 85% it is in use…
As a regular at RIAT i was able to use my D1 for the ferrying of troops in the Minibuses there[/quote]
No the bus is idle for 80%-85% of the year, saying that it’s use is 85% based on weekends and a bit in the week is only kidding yourself. I imagine there are times it’s sitting on the sqn compound doing nothing for weeks at a time. Would you run a car on that basis, considering insurance and road tax, MOT and maintenance? An annual expense of £800-£1000 loaded on a sqn for a convenience is not acceptable.
[quote=“steve679, post:31, topic:2131, full:true”]
there are certainly advantages to a Tourneo or other non-D1 vehicle as it opens up more drivers. it is a case of how often do you fill a 17 seater? if average use is 3-8 passengers there is arguement for a smaller none D1 vehicle but what happens when you have the demand for a larger vehicle? run two vehicles alongside each other??
i know one Sqn that does that in the Wing, but of course it doubles the cost…[/quote]
I’ve never been on a sqn with an SOV and we have with staff, CWC and parents got cadets where they need to be. Personally having an SOV gives staff (especially younger non D1 drivers) chance to not get involved.
Most the squadrons I know only carry more than 8 (by the COs comments) 2 or 3 times a year and at other times find ways to use it. Some of these are looking at ‘Torneos’ as replacements.
The average commuter does exactly that with a car, it sits on the drive Monday to Friday and is used at weekends and occasional evenings.
If you have the right SOV then it can be driven by any member of staff over 21 on a Permit 19, so what it actually does is empower younger staff to run activities a) Without needing the few D1 drivers to be available and b) Without feeling like they have the old and bold breathing down their necks.
An active Squadron will use an SOV on average 3 weekends per month easily. (For us, Wing AT day first Saturday of every month, Wing Range Day at least once per month, Flying 2 weekends per quarter, Wing Sports at least every other month). Thats before you take into account DofE Expeditions (6 Per year) Squadron Camps (2 Per Year), Squadron Activity Days (Be it AT/Museums/Fundraising/Socials). Soon to be adding Clay Target Shooting.
That doesn’t begin to look at things like RAFWARMA teams needing transport and Parade Night use (Mostly Shooting/Sports, but thats another 3 uses per month minimum).
Permit 19 allows you to drive a minibus with unto 16 passenger seats (so a 17 seater bus) as long as the weight of the bus doesn’t exceed 3.5 tonnes (or 4.25 tonnes if you have a wheel chair ramp). On condition that the driver is over 21, has 2 years driving experience and isn’t doing so for hire or reward.