Hello all,
Just an idea I’m throwing out there, we have a 14 Seater Mini Bus which has sat idol since the start of the plaque and the Permit 19 bomb shell.
Under the new rules we have to get it “inspected” (luckily a parent owns a local garage) but D1 licences seem to be an issue between Sqn staff! I have asked the parents and I have about 10 with D1.
The question is can I utilise them as a pool of drivers as long as we have cleared Staff on the bus also?
My gut feeling is no because they won’t be members of the organisation and so not covered by insurance. Get them on board as CI though with this their only duty…?
The only problem with that idea is that they need to jump through alot of hoops just to drive a minibus!
Lots of paperwork and then mandatory training plus AVIP!!
Civilian committee instead? Worth checking with the insurance company
Our insurance only states that the driver needs to be over 25, not whether they are part of the Squadron or not.
I would imagine so long as you have a CFAV present in the minibus, it shouldn’t be a problem.
The driving of the bus, and the supervision of the occupants are two separate issues.
If it is a Squadron Owned Vehicle, then the squadron is responsible for insurance, and can insure it for any licensed driver they wish.
For supervision, you would need a CFAV or staff cadet on board and conform to the correct ratio.
You need to read IBN 045-2020 now.
Operating an SOV without a Section 19 Permit . It is a criminal offence to operate an SOV without appropriate licences and permits. An SOV cannot be operated without a Section 19 Permit. Sqn OCs may only permit the use of a SOV minibus for any RAFAC activities where they are satisfied that a S19 Permit has been issued.
The D1 thing is only applicable to non-SOV vehicles. Operating under a S19 Permit means anyone with a full driving licence, held for over 2 years, aged over 21 but under 70 can drive.
Depending on the MAM of the bus in question; not always true.
For a Standard Permit with no more than 16 passengers - the original poster has 14 seats so it is applicable.
A 14 passenger bus may well have a MAM of over 3500kg; if it has, it cannot be driven under the exemptions you describe by a B licence holder.
There are other restrictions as well such and not towing, etc etc.
Gov Guidance on drivers of vehicles operated under a Section 19 Permit - Drivers of Permit Vehicles (Gov.uk)
So, going back to the original post:
An SOV cannot be operated without a Section 19 Permit
A CFAV Cat B driver without D1 can drive under Section 21 rules if over 21 and under 70 as long as they have held a B full licence for over 2 years. They cannot drive a vehicle over 3500kg in weight and cannot tow a trailer
A Driver with D1 can drive over 3500kg and can tow a trailer (if they have the trailer category DE)
Only RAFAC personnel can be transported in a SOV
I am not certain if a parent with D1 can drive - can anyone help with this? All I can find is that the Driver must be known by staff and passengers and preferably DBS checked.
One thing for certain, its a complete mess!
In my view they would either need to be a fully appointed CI or a Registered CivCom member.
This interpretation is correct.
As it. Has been stated in previous posts before with the Permit 19 in place Sqn staff can drive it on their normal car licences (subject to age and driving experience).
So unless your sqn staff are all very young or inexperience drivers you should be OK.
Civilian committee & parents are part of the “Sqn association” so they have that membership & are able to drive the SOV provided that the Sqn Cdr goes through a process of assessing suitability e.g. check drive, FM600 or a recent D1 qual issue (not grandfather).
This is no different from hiring a minibus with a driver. I would say you can use parents as SOV drivers provided it is documented & registered somewhere at Sqn. However you will need to provide staff to supervise the cadets & it would be advisable to get the parent to go through the DbS process.
Worth pointing out the new 3822A includes consent to be transported by parents of cadets
It does but that isn’t for them being the driver to an SOV but more shared transport to an event and Jonny’s Mum takes more than just Jonny
Should Jonny’s mum be paid passenger mileage allowance?
…but does it state* “in a personal vehicle”?
I’m bored of getting arguments from the CoC policing the “intent” of a policy after the fact, while many would also argue “if it’s not written down you can’t do it”.
(*I can’t actually remember)
As an aside IIRC in British law if it is not specifically ruled to be illegal it is lawful, total opposite in Europe, if it is not ruled to be lawful, it is illegal. Difference between British law and Napoleonic law.