Junior officers

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
1

If oc is a pilot officer and training office is a pilot officer is training officer subordinate

2

Officer Commanding is a clueā€¦ :wink:

5 Likes
3

if oc was a pilot officer and training officer was a squadron leader, training officer is still subordinate.

4

Remind me (the ATC baffles me) - why would OC be a Plt Off?

I thought OC Sqns were established as Flt Lt; and that no-one was a Plt Off until theyā€™d been through ATF. In which case why no promotion to Flt Lt? Or is that because theyā€™ve not done OSC?

5

Some wings wonā€™t promote until they complete probation as an OIC which can be continually extended if the wing desire.

You are correct however the OC Sqn is scaled as a FLT LT, unless a Cat A Sqn in which case it is Sqn Ldr

6

Under the new rules, new OCs will mainly be Flying Officers for 2 years, so you could have a time served flt lt on the squadron who out-ranks the OC for 4 years.

7

Has anyone actually seen a police document on these rules or is this still just something ATF are saying?

8

My understanding is that theyā€™ve done away with OCā€™s of Cat A Squadrons being Sqn Ldrs. All OC posts will be Flt Lt, irrespective of headcount.

I canā€™t give you a reference but that was briefed to us a few years back.

9

Nothing official has been disseminated yet. Itā€™s just been briefed to RCā€™s and OC Wings as yet.

10

in the last 6-9 months we have an OC who has gone from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr having reach 100+ cadetsā€¦

11

I canā€™t account for that. Iā€™m just going on what we were briefed.

12

which i appreciate.

i am going on what we have in our Wingā€¦

13

Subordinateā€¦ No, under their functional authority, yes.

In your scenario, the Sqn Ldr would defer to the Plt Officer for all decisions of Command and their TORs as an OC but the Sqn Ldr would still be senior to him.

Functional Authority is a clearly established military principle that the ACO do not completely appreciate. Example, you have a Flt Lt MCO, he tells a Sqn Ldr WATTO how the media is going to be run for one of his events. By functional authority, it is not the choice of the Sqn Ldr if it happens it is followed as the MCO has the functional authority in media matters.

Most of my current job I have held functional authority of Officers senior to me in rank and position within my area of responsibility. Its not a fun or easy position to be in.

14

Exactly the above.
Iā€™ve been on activities where a FS is the activity lead and has Flt Lts in the staff team who would listen to the FSā€™'s authority for the duration of the activity.

The ACO has a huge problem thinking rank is the be all and end all.

15

RCOs - for our Wg shoots, we often have a cpl (SI).

16

The guys and girls behind the desk at MGR are Cplsā€¦they stop all kinds of people coming in and telling them how its going to beā€¦

17

The phrase ā€œdo not mistake your rank with my authorityā€ springs to mind!

4 Likes
18

NO ā€¦ NO ā€¦ NO ā€¦, the ATC has a huge problem thinking uniform is the be all and end all and then the rank nonsense kicks in as people try to be or like to think they are more important than everyone else.

THE ONLY reason the ATC high command like uniforms, especially Officerā€™s ones, is so that they can hang things on people if it goes wrong and among the VRTs Sqn Ldrs especially, (although there is massive in-fighting in the SNCOs about who does or should do what) Iā€™ve found like to play the rank etc game thinking somehow they are better than everyone else. As a CI (former sqn cdr and WO) with many years experience (Iā€™ve been staff in the ATC longer than our last two COs have been alive, but they know it all ā€¦ bless), seemingly counts for nowt since I stopped wearing a uniform. Iā€™ve stopped offering advice and then smile when it starts to unravel, after all what would I know, Iā€™m only a CI :wink:. Itā€™s their show which I appreciate, but history is a great teacher and if you ignore donā€™t be surprised when you get bitten.

Iā€™m all for someone else having the authority and me being able to not have to worry if it goes wrong. Iā€™ve never been one to clamour for the limelight in the ATC and always allow others to have the aggro and no pay.

19

In my experience of the ACO (actually, the Army are just as bad), a lot of things are briefed as policy changes when they are in fact just under discussion. At least 50% of them never happen. I always advise sitting tight and waiting for it on paper.

A good example is the rewrite of JSP313. (ā€˜What rewrite of JSP313?ā€™ Exactly.)