They couldn’t to be fair. That said we have had staff join as CIs who have been cadets or reservists previously and their drill knowledge is sound.
Without getting onto the debate on whether it is policy or not, where I am everyone has to start as a CI unless a direct transfer from staff cadet or having previous Reg/Reserve service. So there will be people who have drill skills applying, they might have been a cadet just a few months before.
Agreed with you there. Some of them maybe waiting on SNCO/Officer postings however due to the time constraints x number of months waiting etc can be CI for a little while, a drill assessment by a WWO or suitably qualified individual could easily open up more scope. I see the value in CI’s for me on my Squadron I prefer they are utilised in the SME roles that they enjoy. DofE, Adventure training, Band are the 3 main ones for us. Which frees me up for admin and the uniformed side of it. Although as an ex cadet it was like sucking eggs for a bit before getting into uniform.
or finish…
I know a former WWO who is still very active and has been for 10+ as a CI. Their experience is outweighed by any 20 year old Sgt on the basis they have served double that alone, without all the relevant experience gained in that time.
at the beginning…
I know of a different WO who was also a DI, who decided Uniform wasn’t right for him and picked up the CI role. If it came to it I am sure he’d happily “squash bash” if there was no one else suitable
(although I struggle to think of an occasion when i wouldn’t trust one of my Cadet Sgts/FSs to conduct a drill lesson that Staff realistically need to step in)
Thanks for those examples. I’m now convinced there are CIs out there who can and should teach drill. I’m yet to be convinced that either of them should be CIs and question any system that either forces them to be or puts them off uniformed service.
I can - and do - teach drill. I’m a CI.
I also teach the principles of radio, and the history of the RAF - not one of these things interest me in the slightest, however they are in the syllabus, and when I’m asked to do them, it means there’s no one else to do them.
I do wonder sometimes what organisation some of the people on this thread are members of. none of the Sqn’s I’ve been on - which is more than half a dozen, spread across several regions, have ever had the luxury of having so many staff that jobs can be dished out based on the rank/role/clothing of the staff available…
I don’t want to go into uniform for many reasons, I’ve stated some in the past but can’t remember which ones I have mentioned so I shall say for this reply:
The hassle of having to keep a uniform clean and ironed.
The expense of having to buy kit that I don’t need as a CI.
Extra expectations that I have seen current uniformed hassl…actively encouraged to do.
I don’t do the spotlight so quite happy to be on the sidelines and not out front on parades etc.
I’ve been back long enough to know how our Sqn/Wing work, but I’m happier as CI than I would be wearing a uniform.
and finally for now [Comment Removed As It Could Ruffle Feathers]
I understand this is a uniformed youth organisation, but I doubt I would have rejoined if I had to jump through hoops to have to wear the uniform to do what I do as a CI.
I’ve taught the basics of drill to our newer cadets, and I’ve had to be shown how drill has changed since I were a’cadet from our NCO’s. It’s like riding a bike, it all comes back to you and I’ve seen drill taught a sugar load in the years I have been back.
Can fully understand your points made here to be fair.
For me there are 3 types of “Drill”
You have 1) “Basic Drill” both static and marching, basically enough to get you through entering offices, final parade, and remembrance Sunday etc.
“Competition drill” where you have the more complex elements involved usually for Wing training days or even banner drill at remembrance Sunday services etc
Arms drill - With a rifle etc
In my opinion although not ideal I wouldn’t object to the “basic drill” being covered by a CI if they were able to deliver the current and relevant drill. If you take on a new intake in September it could be handy to have that additional body to get the new intake to a basic standard to be able to fill the squadron numbers out a bit for a parade in the November.
“Competition drill” should always be done by either cadet NCO’s or uniformed adult staff, in my opinion and with arms drill, it is very rarely used and you need to have the relevant arms DI qual to do that in any case
With respect, that’s vacuous.
Either someone is able to carry out an activity - and it doesn’t matter whether that’s teaching foot/banner/arms drill, or winter mountaineering, or being the Adj - or not.
If you have a capable, qualified A/FS and a capable, qualified/experienced CI available, that night, then the FS will probably take the practice simply because, as an FS, they’ll probably be more interested in drill - but that’s about the end of it.
If a Sqn doesn’t have a capable/qualified SNCO, but does have a capable/whatever CI, should they not do banner drill?
The number of Sqn’s who can pick and choose between capable adult staff based on rank/role is small - our culture should accept/respect that.
I know the meaning of the word and by putting “with respect” before it doesn’t make it seem ok to throw accusations around. This is an open forum where ideas and best practices can be shared and constructive debate with personal opinions displayed just because I have my constructive argument that doesn’t mean I show a lack of thought or intelligence. If you actually read my comment, I brought banner under “Competition drill” and I suggested it should be taught by “either cadet NCO’s or uniformed adult staff” if you are running your Squadron with just CI’s and no Cadet NCO’s, you are doing a better job than any Squadron I have seen.
And if there are only CI’s who do you expect to teach the NCO’s?
It’s all learning from a book and applying it. At the risk of upsetting the likes of @AlexCorbin the drill manual isn’t a sacred document reserved for the select few. In an ideal world every squadron would have a DI teaching from the book. In reality we all make do and if the best person for the job is a CI then sobeit!
That was the whole point you would have just CI’s and a bunch of non-ranked cadets. Cadet NCO’s should be able to teach drill
The Squadron would have to either be brand new or every single uniformed member of staff and cadet NCO removed at the same time for that scenario to occur which although is not impossible there, would be some serious talks from Sector/Wing to get some staffing in place. I don’t have a problem with CI’s teaching basic drill, I think they can be a good aid too however it comes a bit difficult with banner drill. Again its all personal opinions, as an officer, I am always outside when the cadets are, if not checking on progress seeing what I can lend a hand on.
Not aware of any ACO reg / instruction that says this and AP818 isn’t really suitable to the ACO in this context.
Whilst I was in the 6 month CI service period required after having been out of the Corps for a year or so and then waiting for my appointment as an AWO to be confirmed, I took drill instruction at my unit even though we had an AWO. The OC and OC designate both considered me the better DI and I think the AWO agreed as well. As soon as my appoinment as an AWO was confirmed I became the SWO and the situation was normalised. It was all about ‘right person, right skill set’, which ultimately made it a better experience for the cadets.
Obviously we can’t necessarily apply the principle in every situation, but wherever possible we should consider it at least.
The new cadet drill course, takes a nod to this. Its not just for cadets SNCO. CI and Officers can attend and learn how to use the book and teach drill properly.
That is a useful thing.
This makes me very happy.
Can support if you want a trip down the M3.
Could come and show some proper early 2000s CCF drill
Do you teach proper perambulation? With the backwards about turn?